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Your perception of this would depend on what the "all" is in "all has been fulfilled." The reference is to the Law, and the Law is fulfilled, the sacrifice part of that fulfillment is acknowledged by Jews of every persuasion, apparently, but the business about imperfectABLE rules is not. When you can see that rules can never cover what is needed for community with God and man, you will begin to see how love really DOES fulfill what the Law was intended to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
So it comes down to how one word is translated in your proof text and you go with what suits your program vs what agrees with other texts on the subject like Galatians and Hebrews. Got you. Alright, that is the trouble with the Bible; there are a number of cases where views of competing perceptions escaped the editing of those who eliminated all but the orthodox view, It's an interesting study.
Ok, go ahead and stick with your program and I will continue to show that it makes no sense.
I would like to believe that they "will begin to see how love really DOES fulfill what the Law was intended to do," nate. But I am not sanguine about it because of the bold in your second post.
So it comes down to how one word is translated in your proof text and you go with what suits your program vs what agrees with other texts on the subjecyt like Galations and Hebrews. Got you. Alright, that is the trouble with the Bible; there are a number of cases where views of competint perceptions escaped the editing of those who eliminated all but the orthodox view, It's an interesting study.
Ok, go ahead and stick with your program and I will continue to show that it makes no sense.
Incidentally, the original quote provided by SAAN reads "fulfilled," so MY reading comprehension is not in question, and all you did was object to the meaning of "fulfilled" earlier, you did not provide your alternate translation until the post here quoted
Yea, well, you don't understand the meanings of fulfill the law or kill the law...So, let's talk about the flip side, if Jesus came to kill the Law, then what would he have done to accomplish this?...
What Does It Mean to "Fulfill the Law"?
by Lois Tverberg
Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. Matthew 5:17 (NASB)
A difficult passage for many Christians is Jesus' saying in Matthew 5:17 that he "came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it." A traditional way of interpreting it is to say that when Jesus "fulfilled the Law" he brought it to an end, even though in the next several verses, Jesus says quite forcefully that this isn't true. The key is that the phrase "fulfill the Law" is an idiom, and found several other places in the New Testament and in Jewish sayings from Jesus' time. By studying these passages we can understand the saying more fully. Moreover, we can read Paul's important writings about "fulfilling the law," and see what they mean for us.
"Fulfill the Law" as a Rabbinic Idiom
It will help us greatly to know that the phrase "fulfill the Torah" is a rabbinic idiom that is still in use even today. The word we read as "law" is torah in Hebrew, and its main sense is teaching, guidance and instruction, rather than legal regulation. It is God's instructions for living, and because of God's great authority, it demands obedience and therefore takes on the sense of "law." The Torah is often understood to mean the first five books of the Bible, but also refers to the Scriptures in general. In Jesus' time, and among Jews today, this is a very positive thing - that the God who made us would give us instructions for how to live.1 The rabbis made it their goal to understand these instructions fully and teach people how to live by it.
The translation of "to fulfill" is lekayem in Hebrew (le-KAI-yem), which means to uphold or establish, as well as to fulfill, complete or accomplish.2 David Bivin has pointed out that the phrase "fulfill the Law" is often used as an idiom to mean to properly interpret the Torah so that people can obey it as God really intends. The word "abolish" was likely either levatel, to nullify, or la'akor, to uproot, which meant to undermine the Torah by misinterpreting it. For example, the law against adultery could be interpreted as specifically against cheating on one's spouse, but not about pornography. When Jesus declared that lust also was a violation of the commandment, he was clarifying the true intent of that law, so in rabbinic parlance he was "fulfilling the Law." In contrast, if a pastor told his congregation that watching x-rated videos was fine, he would be "abolishing the Law" - causing them to not live as God wants them to live. Here are a couple examples of this usage from around Jesus' time: - http://www.egrc.net/articles/directo...ctor_1006.html
Last edited by Richard1965; 06-10-2016 at 05:41 AM..
Yea, well, you don't understand the meanings of fulfill the law or kill the law...So, let's talk about the flip side, if Jesus came to kill the Law, then what would he have done to accomplish this?...
What Does It Mean to "Fulfill the Law"?
by Lois Tverberg
Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. Matthew 5:17 (NASB)
A difficult passage for many Christians is Jesus' saying in Matthew 5:17 that he "came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it." A traditional way of interpreting it is to say that when Jesus "fulfilled the Law" he brought it to an end, even though in the next several verses, Jesus says quite forcefully that this isn't true. The key is that the phrase "fulfill the Law" is an idiom, and found several other places in the New Testament and in Jewish sayings from Jesus' time. By studying these passages we can understand the saying more fully. Moreover, we can read Paul's important writings about "fulfilling the law," and see what they mean for us.
"Fulfill the Law" as a Rabbinic Idiom
It will help us greatly to know that the phrase "fulfill the Torah" is a rabbinic idiom that is still in use even today. The word we read as "law" is torah in Hebrew, and its main sense is teaching, guidance and instruction, rather than legal regulation. It is God's instructions for living, and because of God's great authority, it demands obedience and therefore takes on the sense of "law." The Torah is often understood to mean the first five books of the Bible, but also refers to the Scriptures in general. In Jesus' time, and among Jews today, this is a very positive thing - that the God who made us would give us instructions for how to live.1 The rabbis made it their goal to understand these instructions fully and teach people how to live by it.
The translation of "to fulfill" is lekayem in Hebrew (le-KAI-yem), which means to uphold or establish, as well as to fulfill, complete or accomplish.2 David Bivin has pointed out that the phrase "fulfill the Law" is often used as an idiom to mean to properly interpret the Torah so that people can obey it as God really intends. The word "abolish" was likely either levatel, to nullify, or la'akor, to uproot, which meant to undermine the Torah by misinterpreting it. For example, the law against adultery could be interpreted as specifically against cheating on one's spouse, but not about pornography. When Jesus declared that lust also was a violation of the commandment, he was clarifying the true intent of that law, so in rabbinic parlance he was "fulfilling the Law." In contrast, if a pastor told his congregation that watching x-rated videos was fine, he would be "abolishing the Law" - causing them to not live as God wants them to live. Here are a couple examples of this usage from around Jesus' time: - What Does It Mean to "Fulfill the Law"?
A lot of words that only miss the meaning by a little bit: the point of understanding Torah or properly interpreting Torah is to understand its purpose and live by that rather that the forms or letters of Torah. When that purpose is fulfilled, then the letters and/forms are not necessarily applicable.
It is not the purpose of Torah that is ended, it is the emphasis on those forms and letters of Law, just as the purpose or intent of animal sacrifice is fulfilled now by means not described in Torah.
A lot of words that only miss the meaning by a little bit: the point of understanding Torah or properly interpreting Torah is to understand its purpose and live by that rather that the forms or letters of Torah. When that purpose is fulfilled, then the letters and/forms are not necessarily applicable.
It is not the purpose of Torah that is ended, it is the emphasis on those forms and letters of Law, just as the purpose or intent of animal sacrifice is fulfilled now by means not described in Torah.
We are not that far apart, Richard, it is just that you wish to make the forms and rules tnat are necessary to Jewish community into what Jesus taught and incumbent on the rest of humanity.
Yea, well, you don't understand the meanings of fulfill the law or kill the law...So, let's talk about the flip side, if Jesus came to kill the Law, then what would he have done to accomplish this?...
What Does It Mean to "Fulfill the Law"?
by Lois Tverberg
Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. Matthew 5:17 (NASB)
A difficult passage for many Christians is Jesus' saying in Matthew 5:17 that he "came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it." A traditional way of interpreting it is to say that when Jesus "fulfilled the Law" he brought it to an end, even though in the next several verses, Jesus says quite forcefully that this isn't true. The key is that the phrase "fulfill the Law" is an idiom, and found several other places in the New Testament and in Jewish sayings from Jesus' time. By studying these passages we can understand the saying more fully. Moreover, we can read Paul's important writings about "fulfilling the law," and see what they mean for us.
"Fulfill the Law" as a Rabbinic Idiom
It will help us greatly to know that the phrase "fulfill the Torah" is a rabbinic idiom that is still in use even today. The word we read as "law" is torah in Hebrew, and its main sense is teaching, guidance and instruction, rather than legal regulation. It is God's instructions for living, and because of God's great authority, it demands obedience and therefore takes on the sense of "law." The Torah is often understood to mean the first five books of the Bible, but also refers to the Scriptures in general. In Jesus' time, and among Jews today, this is a very positive thing - that the God who made us would give us instructions for how to live.1 The rabbis made it their goal to understand these instructions fully and teach people how to live by it.
The translation of "to fulfill" is lekayem in Hebrew (le-KAI-yem), which means to uphold or establish, as well as to fulfill, complete or accomplish.2 David Bivin has pointed out that the phrase "fulfill the Law" is often used as an idiom to mean to properly interpret the Torah so that people can obey it as God really intends. The word "abolish" was likely either levatel, to nullify, or la'akor, to uproot, which meant to undermine the Torah by misinterpreting it. For example, the law against adultery could be interpreted as specifically against cheating on one's spouse, but not about pornography. When Jesus declared that lust also was a violation of the commandment, he was clarifying the true intent of that law, so in rabbinic parlance he was "fulfilling the Law." In contrast, if a pastor told his congregation that watching x-rated videos was fine, he would be "abolishing the Law" - causing them to not live as God wants them to live. Here are a couple examples of this usage from around Jesus' time: - What Does It Mean to "Fulfill the Law"?
Lust, reminds me of that old serpent the dragon and how he covets the woman crowned with 12 stars.
1My son, if you have stood surety for your fellow, have given your hand for a stranger, אבְּנִי אִם עָרַבְתָּ לְרֵעֶךָ תָּקַעְתָּ לַזָּר כַּפֶּיךָ:
2you have been trapped by the sayings of your mouth; you have been caught by the sayings of your mouth. בנוֹקַשְׁתָּ בְאִמְרֵי פִיךָ נִלְכַּדְתָּ בְּאִמְרֵי פִיךָ:
3Do this then, my son, and be saved for you have come into your fellow's palm; go, humble yourself and give your fellow superiority. געֲשֵֹה זֹאת אֵפוֹא בְּנִי וְהִנָּצֵל כִּי בָאתָ בְכַף רֵעֶךָ לֵךְ הִתְרַפֵּס וּרְהַב רֵעֶיךָ:
4Give no sleep to your eyes nor slumber to your eyelids. דאַל תִּתֵּן שֵׁנָה לְעֵינֶיךָ וּתְנוּמָה לְעַפְעַפֶּיךָ:
5Save yourself like a deer from the hand and like a bird from the hand of the snare. ההִנָּצֵל כִּצְבִי מִיָּד וּכְצִפּוֹר מִיַּד יָקוּשׁ:
6Go to the ant, you sluggard; see her ways and become wise, ולֵךְ אֶל נְמָלָה עָצֵל רְאֵה דְרָכֶיהָ וַחֲכָם:
7for she has no chief, overseer, or ruler; זאֲשֶׁר אֵין לָהּ קָצִין שֹׁטֵר וּמשֵׁל:
8yet she prepares her bread in the summer; she gathers her food in the harvest. חתָּכִין בַּקַּיִץ לַחְמָהּ אָגְרָה בַקָּצִיר מַאֲכָלָהּ:
9O lazy one, how long will you lie [there]; when will you get up from your sleep? טעַד מָתַי עָצֵל תִּשְׁכָּב מָתַי תָּקוּם מִשְּׁנָתֶךָ:
10"A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to lie." ימְעַט שֵׁנוֹת מְעַט תְּנוּמוֹת מְעַט חִבֻּק יָדַיִם לִשְׁכָּב:
11And your poverty shall come like a fast walker and your want as an armed man. יאוּבָא כִמְהַלֵּךְ רֵאשֶׁךָ וּמַחְסֹרְךָ כְּאִישׁ מָגֵן:
12An unscrupulous man, a man of violence, walks with a crooked mouth; יבאָדָם בְּלִיַּעַל אִישׁ אָוֶן הוֹלֵךְ עִקְּשׁוּת פֶּה:
13he winks with his eyes, shuffles with his feet, points with his fingers. יגקֹרֵץ בְּעֵינָו מֹלֵל בְּרַגְלָו מֹרֶה בְּאֶצְבְּעֹתָיו:
14Contrariness is in his heart; he plots evil at all times; he incites quarrels. ידתַּהְפֻּכוֹת בְּלִבּוֹ חֹרֵשׁ רָע בְּכָל עֵת מִדֳנִים מִדְיָנִים יְשַׁלֵּחַ:
15Therefore, calamity shall come suddenly; he shall suddenly be broken beyond repair. טועַל כֵּן פִּתְאֹם יָבוֹא אֵידוֹ פֶּתַע יִשָּׁבֵר וְאֵין מַרְפֵּא:
16There are six things that the Lord hates, and the seventh is an abomination of His soul; טזשֶׁשׁ הֵנָּה שָׂנֵא יְהוָה וְשֶׁבַע תּוֹעֲבַות תּוֹעֲבַת נַפְשׁוֹ:
17Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood; יזעֵינַיִם רָמוֹת לְשׁוֹן שָׁקֶר וְיָדַיִם שֹׁפְכוֹת דָּם נָקִי:
18a heart that thinks thoughts of violence; feet that hasten to run to evil; יחלֵב חֹרֵשׁ מַחְשְׁבוֹת אָוֶן רַגְלַיִם מְמַהֲרוֹת לָרוּץ לָרָעָה:
19[one who] speaks lies with false testimony and incites quarrels among brothers. יטיָפִיחַ כְּזָבִים עֵד שָׁקֶר וּמְשַׁלֵּחַ מְדָנִים בֵּין אַחִים:
20My son, keep the commands of your father, and do not forsake the instruction of your mother. כנְצֹר בְּנִי מִצְוַת אָבִיךָ וְאַל תִּטּשׁ תּוֹרַת אִמֶּךָ:
21Bind them always upon your heart, tie them upon your neck. כאקָשְׁרֵם עַל לִבְּךָ תָמִיד עָנְדֵם עַל גַּרְגְּרֹתֶךָ:
22When you walk, it shall lead you; when you lie down, it shall guard you, and when you awaken, it shall speak for you. כבבְּהִתְהַלֶּכְךָ תַּנְחֶה אֹתָךְ בְּשָׁכְבְּךָ תִּשְׁמֹר עָלֶיךָ וַהֲקִיצוֹתָ הִיא תְשִׂיחֶךָ:
23For a commandment is a candle, and the Torah is light, and disciplining rebukes are the way of life; כגכִּי נֵר מִצְוָה וְתוֹרָה אוֹר וְדֶרֶךְ חַיִּים תּוֹכְחוֹת מוּסָר:
24to guard you from an evil woman, from the smoothness of the alien tongue. כדלִשְׁמָרְךָ מֵאֵשֶׁת רָע מֵחֶלְקַת לָשׁוֹן נָכְרִיָּה:
25Do not covet her beauty in your heart, and do not let her captivate you with her eyelids. כהאַל תַּחְמֹד יָפְיָהּ בִּלְבָבֶךָ וְאַל תִּקָּחֲךָ בְּעַפְעַפֶּיהָ:
26Because a man is brought to a loaf of bread for a harlot, and a married woman will hunt a precious soul. כוכִּי בְעַד אִשָּׁה זוֹנָה עַד כִּכַּר לָחֶם וְאֵשֶׁת אִישׁ נֶפֶשׁ יְקָרָה תָצוּד:
27Can a man rake embers with his skirt without burning his clothes? כזהֲיַחְתֶּה אִישׁ אֵשׁ בְּחֵיקוֹ וּבְגָדָיו לֹא תִשָּׂרַפְנָה:
28Or can a man walk on live coals without scorching his feet? כחאִם יְהַלֵּךְ אִישׁ עַל הַגֶּחָלִים וְרַגְלָיו לֹא תִכָּוֶינָה:
29So is he who goes in to his neighbor's wife; no one who touches her will go unpunished. כטכֵּן הַבָּא אֶל אֵשֶׁת רֵעֵהוּ לֹא יִנָּקֶה כָּל הַנֹּגֵעַ בָּהּ:
30They will not despise a thief if he steals to sate his appetite, for he is hungry. ללֹא יָבוּזוּ לַגַּנָּב כִּי יִגְנוֹב לְמַלֵּא נַפְשׁוֹ כִּי יִרְעָב:
31And if he is found, he will pay sevenfold; he must give all he owns. לאוְנִמְצָא יְשַׁלֵּם שִׁבְעָתָיִם אֶת כָּל הוֹן בֵּיתוֹ יִתֵּן:
32One who commits adultery with a woman is devoid of sense; one who would destroy his soul-he will do it. לבנֹאֵף אִשָּׁה חֲסַר לֵב מַשְׁחִית נַפְשׁוֹ הוּא יַעֲשֶֹנָּה:
33He will find wounds and disgrace, and his reproach shall not be erased לגנֶגַע וְקָלוֹן יִמְצָא וְחֶרְפָּתוֹ לֹא תִמָּחֶה:
34for jealousy [shall arouse] the husband's wrath, and he will not have pity on the day of vengeance. לדכִּי קִנְאָה חֲמַת גָּבֶר וְלֹא יַחְמוֹל בְּיוֹם נָקָם:
35He will not have regard for any ransom, neither will he consent though you give him many bribes. להלֹא יִשָּׂא פְּנֵי כָל כֹּפֶר וְלֹא יֹאבֶה כִּי תַרְבֶּה שֹׁחַד:
Of David, a song. I shall sing of kindness and judgment; to You, O Lord, I shall sing. אלְדָוִד מִזְמוֹר חֶסֶד וּמִשְׁפָּט אָשִׁירָה לְךָ יְהֹוָה אֲזַמֵּרָה:
I shall concern myself with the way of integrity. When will it come to me? I shall walk with the innocence of my heart within my house. באַשְׂכִּילָה | בְּדֶרֶךְ תָּמִים מָתַי תָּבוֹא אֵלָי אֶתְהַלֵּךְ בְּתָם לְבָבִי בְּקֶרֶב בֵּיתִי:
I do not place before my eyes any base thing; I hate doing wayward deeds; it does not cling to me. גלֹא אָשִׁית | לְנֶגֶד עֵינַי דְּבַר בְּלִיָּעַל עֲשֹׂה סֵטִים שָׂנֵאתִי לֹא יִדְבַּק בִּי:
A perverse heart turns away from me; I know no evil. דלֵבָב עִקֵּשׁ יָסוּר מִמֶּנִּי רָע לֹא אֵדָע:
He who slanders his neighbor in secret, I cut him down; one whose eyes are raised up high and his heart is expansive, I cannot tolerate him. המְלָשְׁנִי (כתיב מְלָושְׁנִי) בַסֵּתֶר | רֵעֵהוּ אוֹתוֹ אַצְמִית גְּבַהּ עֵינַיִם וּרְחַב לֵבָב אוֹתוֹ לֹא אוּכָל:
My eyes are upon the faithful of the land to dwell with me; he who goes on the way of the innocent, he will serve me. ועֵינַי | בְּנֶאֶמְנֵי אֶרֶץ לָשֶׁבֶת עִמָּדִי הֹלֵךְ בְּדֶרֶךְ תָּמִים הוּא יְשָׁרְתֵנִי:
He will not dwell within my house; he who practices deceit, who speaks lies, will not be established before my eyes. זלֹא יֵשֵׁב | בְּקֶרֶב בֵּיתִי עֹשֵׂה רְמִיָּה דֹּבֵר שְׁקָרִים לֹא יִכּוֹן לְנֶגֶד עֵינָי:
Betimes I cut down all the wicked of the earth; to cut down from the city of the Lord all workers of violence. חלַבְּקָרִים אַצְמִית כָּל רִשְׁעֵי אָרֶץ לְהַכְרִית מֵעִיר יְהֹוָה כָּל פֹּעֲלֵי אָוֶן:
If we really want to follow the path of Jesus, it leads to a cross. And it leads to not paying back evil with evil. It leads to accepting that death is inevitable and that clinging to life in this fallen world is not the way.
Compare that with the common Christian right wing love of guns, war, and the resolve to fight to the death for their "rights".
If we really want to follow the path of Jesus, it leads to a cross. And it leads to not paying back evil with evil. It leads to accepting that death is inevitable and that clinging to life in this fallen world is not the way.
Compare that with the common Christian right wing love of guns, war, and the resolve to fight to the death for their "rights".
Guns are instruments or tools.
resolve to fight to the death. Yes. there is no greater love.
War can be pretty ugly. especially when it has evolved into a power of undermining Honor and Virtue.
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