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Look sephi, the Lord Himself warns about eternal destruction of the soul.. that's the second death, but it's not the ceasing of existence like the first death is to the natural life here on earth (which ceases when the body dies).
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
You see we don't need to fear those who can only kill the temporal, the body, we don't need to fear satan or ISIS - they can only do temporal harm. We need to fear God who can kill both soul and body in hell if we don't repent and turn to Jesus Christ. And that is not a temporal experience, the spirit cannot be "killed" as in "cease to exist" as this earthly life does when we die.
So what is more important? That which ceases to exist, or that which stays forever? The flesh, or the spirit?
What does the verse actually say though? Does it say hell or hellfire? And who created fire? Where did it come from? The devil, the very one you condemn. Makes alotta sense, huh? Hellfire is what kills souls, something your god didn't create. LOL.
I know the spirit is Immoetal, but what if it could be killed?
The spirit is immortal because it isn't part of a system of mathematical laws like our physical existence. It is what it is by its own nature. Thus it cannot be killed, but it can die because of its own nature which comes from our choices. If we choose death over life then eternal death is what we find.
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Originally Posted by Chanokh
Look sephi, the Lord Himself warns about eternal destruction of the soul.. that's the second death, but it's not the ceasing of existence like the first death is to the natural life here on earth (which ceases when the body dies).
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
You see we don't need to fear those who can only kill the temporal, the body, we don't need to fear satan or ISIS - they can only do temporal harm. We need to fear God who can kill both soul and body in hell if we don't repent and turn to Jesus Christ. And that is not a temporal experience, the spirit cannot be "killed" as in "cease to exist" as this earthly life does when we die.
So what is more important? That which ceases to exist, or that which stays forever? The flesh, or the spirit?
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Originally Posted by Sephiroth777
What does the verse actually say though? Does it say hell or hellfire? And who created fire? Where did it come from? The devil, the very one you condemn. Makes alotta sense, huh? Hellfire is what kills souls, something your god didn't create. LOL.
The difference between hell and hellfire is of no significance.
But, who created hell, is indeed the key question. It makes the difference between whether you are worshiping a God of love or a demon godfather (behaves like a mafioso). For too many Christians their religion is about power and control and thus they worship a God of power not a God of love. Turning their God into a mafia boss who seeks control with threats and promises just reveals that this is their own human lust for power and control which is directing their beliefs.
I believe in hell because I see it in the world, but it is a creation of man NOT God. Hell is an inescapable reality because the one thing we can never escape is ourselves and it is there in ourselves which we will find hell as a fruit of our sin.
[quote=mitchellmckain;44552569]The spirit is immortal because it isn't part of a system of mathematical laws like our physical existence. It is what it is by its own nature. Thus it cannot be killed, but it can die because of its own nature which comes from our choices. If we choose death over life then eternal death is what we find.
No, with the right tool, a spirit can die. Hellfire CAN kill a spirit.
The difference between hell and hellfire is of no significance.
Yes it is, when it can kill a spirit or soul.
But, who created hell, is indeed the key question. It makes the difference between whether you are worshiping a God of love
Is sending peoole to hell a god of love?
orFdemon godfather (behaves like a mafioso). For too many Christians their religion is about power and control and thus they worship a God of power not a God of love. Turning their God into a mafia boss who seeks control with threats and promises just reveals that this is their own human lust for power and control which is directing their beliefs.
No, it reveals the true nature of who is really leading them.
I believe in hell because I see it in the world, but it is a creation of man NOT God. Hell is an inescapable reality because the one thing we can never escape is ourselves and it is there in ourselves which we will find hell as a fruit of our sin.
The devil created hell, and owns it. But is he really the devil? And... The antichrist is a devil, not Satan, and he only leaves a pit of sorrow, and if that ain't hellfire... What, he earned himself hellfire? Now that's insane..
Yes the spirit can die, but not from any external cause. The death of the spirit can only come from within.
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Originally Posted by Sephiroth777
Hellfire CAN kill a spirit.
Only in comic books.
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Originally Posted by Sephiroth777
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But, who created hell, is indeed the key question. It makes the difference between whether you are worshiping a God of love
Is sending peoole to hell a god of love?
God does not send people to hell. The doors are locked on the inside. Hell is something people do to themselves.
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Originally Posted by Sephiroth777
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or demon godfather (behaves like a mafioso). For too many Christians their religion is about power and control and thus they worship a God of power not a God of love. Turning their God into a mafia boss who seeks control with threats and promises just reveals that this is their own human lust for power and control which is directing their beliefs.
No, it reveals the true nature of who is really leading them.
Most likely. But I don't like to presume that the thing they worship does not exist. I don't need to. It is enough for me decide where my loyalty lies. The one thing I know with absolute certainty is what sort of God I can believe in and worship.
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Originally Posted by Sephiroth777
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I believe in hell because I see it in the world, but it is a creation of man NOT God. Hell is an inescapable reality because the one thing we can never escape is ourselves and it is there in ourselves which we will find hell as a fruit of our sin.
The devil created hell, and owns it. But is he really the devil? And... The antichrist is a devil, not Satan, and he only leaves a pit of sorrow, and if that ain't hellfire... What, he earned himself hellfire? Now that's insane..
It is certainly possible that there is a place and some being who could be called "the devil" created it. But it is clear to most people that what makes a place hell isn't the scenery but the occupants. I have seen enough examples of people making a hell out of where they live and work, and if they create it then they carry it wherever they go. So I think that goes for whatever "hell" place you are talking about as well.
You might indeed be correct, and I am open to being convinced that you are, but I cannot base my belief on faith. I require testable evidence and that might qualify me as closed-minded to some people. If so, then I plead guilty.
If I could convince you that faith is not the best way to determine truth, (not that I can), would it affect the level of confidence that you have in your belief?
Possibly. I'm open to a lot of ideas and I do occasionally like exploring other options when I have the time but as I've mentioned before, much of my belief is for my own mental and spiritual benefit and based on personal experience rather straight up evidence. While I do believe there is at least some evidence for my belief, this is really not a good thread to talk about off topic evidence on and I'm very short on time lately but I try to respond elsewhere when I can...I only say that because I've been accused more than once of derailing threads by various admins over the years ;p
No, with the right tool, a spirit can die. Hellfire CAN kill a spirit.
Scripture please.
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The difference between hell and hellfire is of no significance.
Which "hell" are you talking about?
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Yes it is, when it can kill a spirit or soul.
Scripture please.
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But, who created hell, is indeed the key question. It makes the difference between whether you are worshiping a God of love
Which "hell"?
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Is sending peoole to hell a god of love?
Do you mean "Sheol" or "Hades" or "Gehenna" or the second death?
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I believe in hell because I see it in the world, but it is a creation of man NOT God. Hell is an inescapable reality because the one thing we can never escape is ourselves and it is there in ourselves which we will find hell as a fruit of our sin.
Which "hell"?
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The devil created hell, and owns it. But is he really the devil? And... The antichrist is a devil, not Satan, and he only leaves a pit of sorrow, and if that ain't hellfire... What, he earned himself hellfire? Now that's insane..
The above is unintelligible. Neither man nor the devil created what you consider "hell."
The very fact that "God will have all mankind to be saved for Christ gave Himself a ransom for all" (1 Tim.2:4-6) shows no "hell" can be eternal.
All you have to do is produce the verifiable, testable evidence to prove your case. Can you do it or not? Don't pull that old Christian card of.... If I gave you the evidence you wouldn't accept it. That is simply another way of saying...'I do not have any verifiable evidence'. .
How about putting it this way: Wrong thread for that! I'm not about to derail this one (more than we already have) on account of responding to off topic questions that require a lot of discussion and debate. It be like you suddenly saying: 'Well, Christians hate Gay people! How do you justify that?' Then...BOOM there goes the thread. Its happened to me a few times and the admins know it
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It's called 'faith' because there is no evidence. If there was evidence you wouldn't need 'faith' ..right?
Not necessarily. We put faith in things every day that we don't have perfect evidence for such as people showing up to work, whether our automobile will get us to work without breaking down, etc. Faith can be based on a lot of things are aren't straight forward physical evidence although it does help a lot.
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You don't need to. I already know the reasons.
Oh really...how would you know those? You getting presumptuous again?... And why even ask for evidence here then?
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In other words, you would believe not on evidence but because you wanted leprechauns to be true.
I don't think it would be quite that simple but Yes it is possible I would given the right circumstances (personal experience, tradition, spirituality, for the fun of it...etc.)...come on, lighten up and embrace the little people!! LOL
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Are you agnostic regarding any of the other alleged gods that exist? After all you don't know everything there is to know about the universe and beyond. Zeus could be hiding behind a cloud somewhere!
Yes, I might be somewhat agnostic about the other gods since I do indeed not know everything there is to know but for personal, spiritual, and some historical and philosophical reasons, I find them much less likely.
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Hardly. Especially when each of those different opinions claim 'Truth'. There cannot be more than 30,000 different versions of what is true.
Of the 30000 Christian denominations, most of them agree on the core principles and only disagree on smaller details so its no reason to panic on our end. Heck, I'm open minded to a lot of those details so I might fall into many of those denominations. Contrary to what many Christians seem to think, God did not hand us an English bible through the clouds and that's Ok with me because my belief is not based only on physical or historical evidence. as I think I implied before, I also don't believe the bible was written with the intention that everyone would understand just a single set of less important truths. You standards for belief are obviously not the same as mine and that's ok.
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No they don't but science doesn't claim 'Truth' (capital T for added effect)
That may depend on the historian or scientist you ask but when did I do that? Based on what I've said so far, does it really sound like I think I have the perfect theology and explanation for everything?...
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Sure there can be...if you believe in an omnimax deity. But let me ask you this. Is there going to be suffering, misery, starvation in your heaven? If not, how are Christians (because of course, they will be the only ones there ) and their god going to avoid boredom? How are you going to have freewill without suffering?
First of all, I think its more the 'Potential' for misery and suffering that is necessarly for total freewill rather than it being a current reality, but this reality is a likely outcome in a world left to its own devices and not ruled entirely by God. Also, as I mentioned to Amaznjohn before, in a heavenly Dimension Freewill may very well look and be conceived of very differently. Its also possible that if we were to gain some of Gods perspective in Heaven, it would make it next to impossible for us not to freely choose what is right...speculation of course but these are the kind of abstract possibilities I open my mind up to contemplating and I hope you will consider it as well...especially on threads like this...and just so we are clear, no you don't get a free pass on comtemplating these things just because you think its all BS. lol. That's what these theology threads are for.
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He didn't know this was going to happen?? It wasn't part of his 'plan'??
Probably yes at least to some degree. There are no perfect answers as to why it is to the extent it is, but I think the answers I've provided are sufficient enough for now without getting us too off topic
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It's a British term of affection.
Old thing.
Old horse.
Old beast.
Old man.
Old chap.
Old fruit etc.
Ok I get it. Sorry, my family hasn't been British is many generations and I don't watch BBC very often I was worried you were making assumptions about my age based on my theology, lol.
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One thing you need to accept if we are to go further. I DON'T CARE! I don't care if you think me a jackass. Nor do I care about any 'conditions' that you have. I too suffer 'conditions' but still consider myself infinitely better off than most of the world is. So if we can get that straight things will go better.
While I'm not sure this necessarily justifies you being over-presumptuous in my mind, I'll just say: Understood. There are plenty of people over the world waay worse off than you and I at the moment I'm sure.
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Now do tell me just what 'forces' an omnimax deity has to contend with that would affect the way it could operate.
Assuming he actually is in fact 'omnimax' (which I've already mentioned I'm not so sure about) and you wanting specifics relating to spiritual or comic chores or warfare or whatever...heck if I know, LOL.... Aside form what I've already said, that's well above my human existential paygrade or whatever you want to call it...just as Dark Matter is currently above most scientists true understanding outside of math. I stand behind way I said before on this topic.
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It's what he planned. Why would this god have 'emotions' about what it wanted and planned to happen.
Why wouldn't he? He feels what we feel and many parents have a good idea their rebel kids are going to get hurt but it doesn't make it any easier when it happens. For all we know, he was hoping the world wouldn't turn out anywhere near this bad and that we would take more initiative to prevent this from happening. The world may also be its own kind of lesson for us to see what the true result of evil and sin truly is and what happens when creation is left to its own devices. And while I said already that I agree it seems more excessive than it really needed to be to learn these lessons and sometimes it seems pointlessly bad, These are lessons on the scale of eternity rather than just our lives which makes it quite a bit more complicated than just God letting too many bad things happen. He may also be helping and comforting people in ways we don't understand that work with our worlds required standards of freewill.
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Yes. And...?
..Do I really need to answer that?...
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Pie in the sky thinking old horse.
Inspite of the fact that are claimed miracles and communications with one's God virtually every day and have been through most human history, it is possible that it may turn out that way given that few to none are scientifically verifiable with current methods.. but I like it oh soooo much better than your thinking for the reasons I've already stated ...and the ones suffering probably do too as it may very well keep their spirits up through such hard times.
Anyways, my quote function is not working on this website and I've had to manually type it in just so it get it to work. If you have anything else to say would you mind summarizing with a shorter post so it doesn't take me all day with the little time I have to respond? If not I'll try to keep up if I can or try summarizing the next post.
Last edited by Jrhockney; 06-27-2016 at 06:13 PM..
Not necessarily. We put faith in things every day that we don't have perfect evidence for such as people showing up to work, whether our automobile will get us to work without breaking down, etc. Faith can be based on a lot of things are aren't straight forward physical evidence although it does help a lot.
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I created another thread where this type of discussion would be welcome. If you're willing, could you go to that thread and provide your definition of faith? I believe that would be helpful.
Not necessarily. We put faith in things every day that we don't have perfect evidence for such as people showing up to work, whether our automobile will get us to work without breaking down, etc. Faith can be based on a lot of things are aren't straight forward physical evidence although it does help a lot.
No we don't. The things you mentioned are not based on faith but verifiable evidence. Perhaps if Amaznjohn would give us the link to his thread we could discuss it there.
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Yes, I might be somewhat agnostic about the other gods since I do indeed not know everything there is to know but for personal, spiritual, and some historical and philosophical reasons, I find them much less likely.
For no other reason than you were not born into a culture that worships those gods.
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Of the 30000 Christian denominations, most of them agree on the core principles and only disagree on smaller details ....
You mean like whether or not people go to hell or not, or what the 'Word of God' actually says. Hardly minor issues are they old thing?
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Its also possible that if we were to gain some of Gods perspective in Heaven, it would make it next to impossible for us not to freely choose what is right...
Then I would have to ask why you god could not create such a situation in the first place and do away with all the suffering.
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Why wouldn't he? He feels what we feel and many parents have a good idea their rebel kids are going to get hurt but it doesn't make it any easier when it happens.
The difference of course is that normal parents are usually not in a position to prevent their kids getting hurt. It's not the same as an omnimax deity looking on as one of his 'children' thrusts his hand in a fire...and then being sad about it happening.
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For all we know, he was hoping the world wouldn't turn out anywhere near this bad and that we would take more initiative to prevent this from happening.
That only works if you posit a non-omnimax deity doesn't it?
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.Do I really need to answer that?...
What I mean is...what if all that happens is that we live and die?
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Anyways, my quote function is not working on this website and I've had to manually type it in just so it get it to work. If you have anything else to say would you mind summarizing with a shorter post so it doesn't take me all day with the little time I have to respond? If not I'll try to keep up if I can or try summarizing the next post.
I created another thread where this type of discussion would be welcome. If you're willing, could you go to that thread and provide your definition of faith? I believe that would be helpful.
Where is it old fruit?
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) and their god going to avoid boredom? How are you going to have freewill without suffering?
I was worried you were making assumptions about my age based on my theology, lol. 
If not I'll try to keep up if I can or try summarizing the next post.
