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Good Scripture. The system won't let me rep you anymore, tough.
Acts 20
[29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
[30] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
[31] Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
However, the OSAS crowd will tell you that even if someone leaves Christ and becomes a disciple of Buddha, they will still be saved but only lose their reward. Charles Stanley teaches this deceit too.
Exactly. There are multiple scriptures that encourage the believer to remain faithful as well as warnings to the believer for a reason.
John 15:6-9
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Jesus makes no such alternative gospel as OSAS to those who choose not to remain in him, nor does he make this nonsensical "saved but losing the reward" rubbish.
The truth is the reward of being saved is life with God in heaven ... to lose the reward is to lose life with God in heaven. Thus why scriptures encourage the believer to remain faithful and also to warn the believer.
Amen Mike, salvation is by grace alone through faith alone lest any man should boast. Jesus Christ secures our salvation, and if anyone goes off and follows Buddha, that person I believe, was never saved in the first place. As you can see in Matthew 7, the Lord says go away from Me, ye that work iniquity - true salvation will bear true fruit through the Holy Spirit, not our own efforts. False belief will bear different fruit contrary to Gods Word and will, e.g. the "Believer" that goes off to follow buddha. But true belief, is a gift from God, and our eternal salvation is secured in Jesus Christ by grace alone through faith. That doesn't mean we shouldn't discern true faith from false faith, but we should believe the Bibles teaching on eternal security and not teach something contrary because there are those that have a superficial confession and fall away - that way you contradict the teachings of Paul, and of our Lord Himself, and take away the comfort from the true believers that are grafted into Christ and received the Spirit as a surety for their salvation.
Amen Mike, salvation is by grace alone through faith alone lest any man should boast. Jesus Christ secures our salvation, and if anyone goes off and follows Buddha, that person I believe, was never saved in the first place. As you can see in Matthew 7, the Lord says go away from Me, ye that work iniquity - true salvation will bear true fruit through the Holy Spirit, not our own efforts. False belief will bear different fruit contrary to Gods Word and will, e.g. the "Believer" that goes off to follow buddha. But true belief, is a gift from God, and our eternal salvation is secured in Jesus Christ by grace alone through faith. That doesn't mean we shouldn't discern true faith from false faith, but we should believe the Bibles teaching on eternal security and not teach something contrary because there are those that have a superficial confession and fall away - that way you contradict the teachings of Paul, and of our Lord Himself, and take away the comfort from the true believers that are grafted into Christ and received the Spirit as a surety for their salvation.
Actually, I don't agree with the argument that someone who comes to the point where he denies Jesus and, as in the example, goes off and follows Buddha, was never saved in the first place. Now it is true that there are false teachers who claim to be followers of Jesus but in reality never were, but that's a different issue.
To say that a person who turns away from Jesus was never saved in the first place ignores the fact that a believer can go into an extended state of carnality which over time becomes reversionism (backsliding) in which the believer comes to think like any unbeliever.
But a person who has at some point in his life received Christ as Savior and is therefore eternally saved can for one reason or another come to turn away from Jesus. He is still saved, but he is a loser as far as his spiritual life is concerned, and he will not have any rewards at the judgment seat of Christ.
Amen Mike, salvation is by grace alone through faith alone lest any man should boast. Jesus Christ secures our salvation, and if anyone goes off and follows Buddha, that person I believe, was never saved in the first place. As you can see in Matthew 7, the Lord says go away from Me, ye that work iniquity - true salvation will bear true fruit through the Holy Spirit, not our own efforts. False belief will bear different fruit contrary to Gods Word and will, e.g. the "Believer" that goes off to follow buddha. But true belief, is a gift from God, and our eternal salvation is secured in Jesus Christ by grace alone through faith. That doesn't mean we shouldn't discern true faith from false faith, but we should believe the Bibles teaching on eternal security and not teach something contrary because there are those that have a superficial confession and fall away - that way you contradict the teachings of Paul, and of our Lord Himself, and take away the comfort from the true believers that are grafted into Christ and received the Spirit as a surety for their salvation.
As I thought what would eventually surface ... the ugly face of OSAS theology that boasts it can judge the heart of the individual to determine if God the Holy Spirit worked faith in the first place.
Such determination by OSAS theology is the satanic desire to peer into the Judges Seat. Such statements angers me because it is the Lord alone who:
"the Lord searches every heart and understands every desireand every thought.
If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever."
But a person who has at some point in his life received Christ as Savior and is therefore eternally saved can for one reason or another come to turn away from Jesus. He is still saved, but he is a loser as far as his spiritual life is concerned, and he will not have any rewards at the judgment seat of Christ.
Nonsense.
The truth is the reward of being saved is life with God in heaven ... to lose the reward is to lose life with God in heaven.
John 15:6-9
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Jesus was speaking to those who were his disciples already.
Jesus says such a person is not saved. Claiming one is, is to offer hope where there is none given.
That claim OSAS is nothing more than a "mini-me" false promise of UR.
Exactly. There are multiple scriptures that encourage the believer to remain faithful as well as warnings to the believer for a reason.
John 15:6-9
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Jesus makes no such alternative gospel as OSAS to those who choose not to remain in him, nor does he make this nonsensical "saved but losing the reward" rubbish.
The truth is the reward of being saved is life with God in heaven ... to lose the reward is to lose life with God in heaven. Thus why scriptures encourage the believer to remain faithful and also to warn the believer.
''Nonsensical saved but losing the reward rubbish?'' Paul said otherwise.
1 Cor. 3:13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14] If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
''To lose the reward is to lose life with God in heaven?'' John warned against losing a full reward as opposed to a partial reward.
2 John 1:8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
If the reward was life in heaven with God, then in view of what John said, by your line of thinking, that would mean that a believer who doesn't get a full reward would . . . what? Only get to be with God in heaven part time, and the rest of the time have to go back to hell? So, heaven on weekends and holidays, and hell the rest of the time? Really?
Jesus Himself noted degrees of rewards in eternity when He stated in the parable of the minas that some would rule over ten cities, and others over five cities (Luke 19:12-24).
John 15:6-9 which you referenced has to be understood in light of what is said in 1 Corinthians 3:13-15.
Being thrown into the fire and burned in that passage is not a reference to the believer losing his salvation and being thrown into the lake of fire. The perpetually disobedient believer can however undergo divine discipline in time and experience the 'fire' of that discipline in time. But he can never lose his eternal salvation. But as long as you refuse to think in terms other than what your denomination has taught you, you will never understand this.
As I thought what would eventually surface ... the ugly face of OSAS theology that boasts it can judge the heart of the individual to determine if God the Holy Spirit worked faith in the first place.
Such determination by OSAS theology is the satanic desire to peer into the Judges Seat. Such statements angers me because it is the Lord alone who:
"the Lord searches every heart and understands every desireand every thought.
If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever."
Did I judge anyone personally? I just said that, as it says in Matthew 7, there will be those that say Lord, Lord have we not in Your Name done... and He will say, depart from Me I never knew you ye workers of iniquity. There will be judgment for people that thought they knew the Lord, but didn't. That's just a Biblical fact, and didn't the Lord teach that by their fruit we shall know the tree? Are we not to discern the spirits to see whether they are from God?
Discernment is necessary and Biblical, we need to search the Scriptures to see if these things are so, and to beware of the false prophets saying here is the Christ or there is the Christ.
To be angry over Biblical discernment which the Bible teaches itself, and falsely calling it boasting to judge the heart, as if it were satanic pride instead of Spiritual discernment, is that from God?
In the same passage where Jesus said 'Judge not, lest ye be judged', He also said:
Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
So what was the judgment the Lord was talking about? It wasn't the discernment of true or false prophets, we are called to look at the fruit so we can know the tree, that requires judgment of fruit - good or bad. He didn't teach us to say 'Oh well God judges the hearts.. what do I know', as if that were humility. Christ commended the Church at Ephesus for discerning the false apostles and exposing them: Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Appearantly they judged these people, and they judged rightly. What the Lord is talking about when He says 'Judge not, lest ye be judged' is refraining from hypocritical and proud judgment from the flesh like the Pharisees. Also we do not have the final judgment, the Lord is the final Judge. But He gave His Spirit and His Word, so we could discern false from sincere, and I am so thankful He did!
Actually, I don't agree with the argument that someone who comes to the point where he denies Jesus and, as in the example, goes off and follows Buddha, was never saved in the first place. Now it is true that there are false teachers who claim to be followers of Jesus but in reality never were, but that's a different issue.
To say that a person who turns away from Jesus was never saved in the first place ignores the fact that a believer can go into an extended state of carnality which over time becomes reversionism (backsliding) in which the believer comes to think like any unbeliever.
But a person who has at some point in his life received Christ as Savior and is therefore eternally saved can for one reason or another come to turn away from Jesus. He is still saved, but he is a loser as far as his spiritual life is concerned, and he will not have any rewards at the judgment seat of Christ.
I just don't believe that such extended states of carnality as you describe them can occur in the life of a sincere believer of Christ, there ofcourse can be times of backsliding as with Peter, but he was grieved and eventually restored. Same goes for Thomas' unbelief, eventually the Lord takes his unbelief away, and mind you these were examples before the Holy Spirit was poured out. So restoration took place, unlike the case of Judas, because he was never a true disciple in the first place. That is the difference imo.
When Paul says, I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith (2 Tim.4).. he is looking forward to the crown of righteousness. But if you don't keep the faith, don't fight the good fight, don't finish the race, don't use your talents for the Lord etc. how can you expect eternal life? If the salt has lost it's savour, it's good for absolutely nothing, if the tree doesn't bear good fruit year after year, won't it be cut down and thrown into the fire? I think that's not talking of 'Peter's' that will be restored, but of Judas's that never were true disciples (though even the disciples themselves couldn't discern him!) but were expected and given opportunity to bear fruit since they were under Gospel truth.
Where in the Scriptures do you find anything like reversionism, an example or an indication of it? I am honestly asking that because I'm curious to see your point of view from a Scriptural standpoint.
Actually, I don't agree with the argument that someone who comes to the point where he denies Jesus and, as in the example, goes off and follows Buddha, was never saved in the first place. Now it is true that there are false teachers who claim to be followers of Jesus but in reality never were, but that's a different issue.
To say that a person who turns away from Jesus was never saved in the first place ignores the fact that a believer can go into an extended state of carnality which over time becomes reversionism (backsliding) in which the believer comes to think like any unbeliever.
But a person who has at some point in his life received Christ as Savior and is therefore eternally saved can for one reason or another come to turn away from Jesus. He is still saved, but he is a loser as far as his spiritual life is concerned, and he will not have any rewards at the judgment seat of Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanokh
I just don't believe that such extended states of carnality as you describe them can occur in the life of a sincere believer of Christ, there ofcourse can be times of backsliding as with Peter, but he was grieved and eventually restored. Same goes for Thomas' unbelief, eventually the Lord takes his unbelief away, and mind you these were examples before the Holy Spirit was poured out. So restoration took place, unlike the case of Judas, because he was never a true disciple in the first place. That is the difference imo.
When Paul says, I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith (2 Tim.4).. he is looking forward to the crown of righteousness. But if you don't keep the faith, don't fight the good fight, don't finish the race, don't use your talents for the Lord etc. how can you expect eternal life? If the salt has lost it's savour, it's good for absolutely nothing, if the tree doesn't bear good fruit year after year, won't it be cut down and thrown into the fire? I think that's not talking of 'Peter's' that will be restored, but of Judas's that never were true disciples (though even the disciples themselves couldn't discern him!) but were expected and given opportunity to bear fruit since they were under Gospel truth.
Where in the Scriptures do you find anything like reversionism, an example or an indication of it? I am honestly asking that because I'm curious to see your point of view from a Scriptural standpoint.
A number of examples can be given with regard to extended periods of carnality and reversionism in which a believer falls away from the faith, but not from eternal salvation.
For instance, in 1 Timothy 1:19 Paul exhorts Timothy to keep the faith which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. The 'some' to which Paul refers had had faith at one time but they came to reject it and their faith was shipwrecked or destroyed. But they were still eternally saved.
In 1 Timothy 6:10 Paul speaks of those who wandered away from the faith because of the love of money. In order to wander away from the faith one must first have had the faith. Again however, wandering away from the faith doesn't mean they lost their salvation.
In Hebrews 5:11- 6:16 the writer of Hebrews exhorts his readers to not fall away from what they had been taught. He states that it is impossible to renew to repentance those who fall away. The reference was with regard to the fact that Jewish believers in the first century were being influenced by the Judaizers who were trying to get Jewish believers to reject the grace teaching they had learned, and to return to the teachings and rituals of Judaism. Those who did were not likely to again accept grace teaching. They wouldn't lose their salvation but they would be entangled in legalism.
In Revelation 3:15 Jesus had no word of commendation for the Laodicean church because they were lukewarm. It's not that they were all unbelievers, but that as believers they were indifferent. They are described as being wretched and miserable and poor and blind. This means then that they were in constant carnality.
A believer who neglects to name his sins as per 1 John 1:9 remains in a state of carnality. The longer he remains carnal the more likely it is that he will stay in that condition. Eventually he goes into full scale reversionism from which he may or may not recover.
Many believers have lost their faith for some reason or other. It doesn't mean that they were never saved, it just means that they gave in to whatever it was that caused them to lose their faith. But they are still saved.
Did I judge anyone personally? I just said that, as it says in Matthew 7, there will be those that say Lord, Lord have we not in Your Name done... and He will say, depart from Me I never knew you ye workers of iniquity. There will be judgment for people that thought they knew the Lord, but didn't. That's just a Biblical fact, and didn't the Lord teach that by their fruit we shall know the tree? Are we not to discern the spirits to see whether they are from God?
Actually yes one is judging by saying (context being one who did not remain a believer) -
if anyone goes off and follows Buddha, that person I believe, was never saved in the first place.
key words being " was never saved in the first place."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanokh
Discernment is necessary and Biblical, we need to search the Scriptures to see if these things are so, and to beware of the false prophets saying here is the Christ or there is the Christ.
To be angry over Biblical discernment which the Bible teaches itself, and falsely calling it boasting to judge the heart, as if it were satanic pride instead of Spiritual discernment, is that from God?
In the same passage where Jesus said 'Judge not, lest ye be judged', He also said:
Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.[/quote]
Read your bold closer. Jesus was warning about false prophets- it is they who we will know bytheir fruits! That is not the same person as someone who does not remain faithful which Jesus speaks about John 15:6-9.
Yes in way people should be angry because no one except God knows what soil the heart is as explained by Jesus in Matthew 13:18-23.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanokh
So what was the judgment the Lord was talking about? It wasn't the discernment of true or false prophets, we are called to look at the fruit so we can know the tree, that requires judgment of fruit - good or bad. He didn't teach us to say 'Oh well God judges the hearts.. what do I know', as if that were humility. Christ commended the Church at Ephesus for discerning the false apostles and exposing them: Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Appearantly they judged these people, and they judged rightly. What the Lord is talking about when He says 'Judge not, lest ye be judged' is refraining from hypocritical and proud judgment from the flesh like the Pharisees. Also we do not have the final judgment, the Lord is the final Judge. But He gave His Spirit and His Word, so we could discern false from sincere, and I am so thankful He did!
Read your own answer: discernment of true or false prophets concerning their fruits, not whether God the Holy Spirit worked faith to begin with.
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