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Old 08-06-2016, 09:26 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,930 posts, read 26,160,446 times
Reputation: 16087

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
What you call nonsense is stated by the writers of Scripture to be a fact.

God used the unbelieving Jewish leadership and the Romans to get Jesus on the cross where He needed to be in order to die for the sins of the world.
Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
God can use even the evil of man to accomplish His plan and purpose.

Jesus Himself stated that His blood was to be poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (Matthew 26:28)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Nothing you said remotely suggests that God needed a blood sacrifice to appease Him!!! It simply states WHAT actually happened, that God KNEW it would happen, and that it is part of God's PLAN to bring us to God, not WHY it was necessary!!! There would not have been prophecies about it if it was NOT part of God's plan, but the barbaric nonsense of a blood sacrifice to appease Him is all the result of human ignorance and superstition. God NEVER wanted sacrifice. It.was always about mercy and compassion for one another that Jesus revealed is agape love. With agape love, there can be no harm to others and therefore no sin.
You ignore all the many passages which make it clear that Jesus died for our sins.

You ignore the Levitical animal sacrifices which were types or pictures of the work of Christ on the cross.

You ignore Isaiah 53 which stays that God was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief if He would render Himself as a guilt offering (Isaiah 53:10).

You ignore the fact that Jesus Himself stated that His blood was shed for many for the forgiveness of sins (Matthew 26:28).

You ignore the fact that it is stated that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness (Hebrews 9:22).

You ignore the fact that the writer of Hebrews said that Jesus was offered once to bear the sins of many (Hebrews 9:28). That He bore our sins in His own body on the cross (1 Peter 2:24). That He offered one sacrifice for sins for all time (Hebrews 10:12). That Jesus purchased for God with His blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation (Revelation 5:9).

The Bible, both Old and New Testaments shout out the fact that Jesus had to sacrifice Himself in order for God to be propitiated. John states that Jesus is the propitiation for our sins (1 John 2:2).
1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

The Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (BDAG) defines ἱλασμός - hilasmos - propitiation as

1. appeasement necessitated by sin, expiation

2. instrument for appeasing, sacrifice to atone, sin-offering

And so in 1 John 2:2 you have a specific statement that Jesus was the atoning sacrifice for our sins. This was to appease God the Father.

All of these verses make it crystal clear that it was the Father's predetermined plan for Jesus to go to the cross to bear our sins in His own body in order to be an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
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Old 08-06-2016, 09:28 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,930 posts, read 26,160,446 times
Reputation: 16087
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Last Amalekite 1Sam15 View Post
so i am on the path of god, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Last Amalekite 1Sam15 View Post
right mike555?
I don't know what your beliefs are, but if you haven't received Christ as Savior you're spiritually dead and under condemnation.
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Old 08-06-2016, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,192,722 times
Reputation: 2295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I don't know what your beliefs are, but if you haven't received Christ as Savior you're spiritually dead and under condemnation.
You have to grow and mature from the inside out.

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Old 08-12-2016, 09:17 AM
 
Location: North Carolina
1,543 posts, read 1,306,087 times
Reputation: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanokh View Post
I said something in another thread about truth and application and I think you are defending a truth but applying it completely wrong here. Took me a while to figure that out, but your posts in another thread where you enjoyed taunting me with pictures of half-naked women did get me thinking about your defense of OSAS..

The first bolded part is simply a lie, our wills are changed when we are born again, and God gives power to resist temptation we didn't have before that. If you have truly received Christ, sin will not have dominion over you anymore. If sin has dominion over you, I'd suggest you take another look why you are defending OSAS, is it because you want to have your sin and feel comfortable about your eternal life?

Romans 6:12-14 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

I am not saying believers are perfect, far from it. But if you think a believer is just as easily overcome by temptation as before, just as capable as living as he did as an unbeliever, just as easily sin and never confess their sins as before.. then what exactly is rebirth? What exactly is the power of Jesus Christ in that persons life, of the Holy Spirit in that persons heart? Try and read Romans 8, here's a part of it:

Romans 8:4-8 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

12-14 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

I hope you'll think about these verses, Paul didn't need to defend the truth of election and perseverance (later in Romans 8) by pretending that people can live as carnally as they want and still be saved.
Excellent post
If we are trulyborn again, we have become servants of righteousness and are no lomger servants of sin. We are certainly not perfect but the Holy Spirit gives us power not to sin willfully and in a premeditated, malicious way. See Heb. 10:[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,[which comes with the gift of the Holy Spirit] there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
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Old 08-12-2016, 01:45 PM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,295 posts, read 9,659,947 times
Reputation: 17805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Prince View Post
Excellent post
If we are trulyborn again, we have become servants of righteousness and are no lomger servants of sin. We are certainly not perfect but the Holy Spirit gives us power not to sin willfully and in a premeditated, malicious way. See Heb. 10:[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,[which comes with the gift of the Holy Spirit] there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Amen !
His post are always spot on with God's truth and they're definitely led by the Spirit ! Love reading them !
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Old 08-12-2016, 04:48 PM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
Reputation: 7792
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
If what happened to Jesus was what God NEEDED to happen to appease His Holiness or justice or righteousness or whatever other nonsense you believe, why did Jesus ask God to "Forgive them they know not what they do."??? Why would they need to be forgiven for doing what God needed to have done????
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Nothing you said remotely suggests that God needed a blood sacrifice to appease Him!!! It simply states WHAT actually happened, that God KNEW it would happen, and that it is part of God's PLAN to bring us to God, not WHY it was necessary!!! There would not have been prophecies about it if it was NOT part of God's plan, but the barbaric nonsense of a blood sacrifice to appease Him is all the result of human ignorance and superstition. God NEVER wanted sacrifice. It.was always about mercy and compassion for one another that Jesus revealed is agape love. With agape love, there can be no harm to others and therefore no sin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You ignore all the many passages which make it clear that Jesus died for our sins.
He died BECAUSE OF our ancestors' sins (missing the mark) manifested in their ignorant and barbaric beliefs about God and their brutality. They knew not what they did.
Quote:
You ignore the Levitical animal sacrifices which were types or pictures of the work of Christ on the cross.
They were the barbaric ignorant interpretations of primitives based on fear of God. God NEVER wanted animal sacrifices.
Quote:
You ignore Isaiah 53 which stays that God was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief if He would render Himself as a guilt offering (Isaiah 53:10).
That was a general belief about God. ANYTHING that happened to anyone was considered the result of God's will. That is why they mistreated cripples. They did not want to treat them any better than the God who crippled them!!! Pure barbaric ignorance and superstition born of fear.
Quote:
You ignore the fact that Jesus Himself stated that His blood was shed for many for the forgiveness of sins (Matthew 26:28).
It was shed to provoke mercy and compassion the necessary state of mind for forgiveness. God has ALWAYS only wanted mercy and compassion, NOT blood sacrifices. You ignore al those passages that correctly reveal the motives and nature of God in favor of your barbaric and primitive beliefs about God's motives and nature from the OT.
Quote:
You ignore the fact that it is stated that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness (Hebrews 9:22).
Our ancestors were so barbaric that shedding the blood of a completely innocent and loving man was the only stimulus remotely likely to evoke forgiveness in them through mercy and compassion.
Quote:
You ignore the fact that the writer of Hebrews said that Jesus was offered once to bear the sins of many (Hebrews 9:28). That He bore our sins in His own body on the cross (1 Peter 2:24). That He offered one sacrifice for sins for all time (Hebrews 10:12). That Jesus purchased for God with His blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation (Revelation 5:9).
His perfect agape love endured horrendous scourging and crucifixion without diminishing. He loved even His torturers and murderers, something none of us could have achieved. That is how He was our substitute. He is our "designated hitter" achieving the perfect agape love we could not.
Quote:
The Bible, both Old and New Testaments shout out the fact that Jesus had to sacrifice Himself in order for God to be propitiated. John states that Jesus is the propitiation for our sins (1 John 2:2).
1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Wrong. God did not need to be propitiated. We needed to achieve connection with God and none of us were capable of it except Jesus. Jesus was the promised redeemer for our entire species. Redeemers fulfill the promise made. I am tired of trying to disabuse you wrathful God types who actually believe a blood sacrifice of innocents makes sense to you and is not barbaric! I admit, I cannot remotely identify with such a preposterous concept!!
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Old 08-12-2016, 05:02 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,930 posts, read 26,160,446 times
Reputation: 16087
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
He died BECAUSE OF our ancestors' sins (missing the mark) manifested in their ignorant and barbaric beliefs about God and their brutality. They knew not what they did. They were the barbaric ignorant interpretations of primitives based on fear of God. God NEVER wanted animal sacrifices. That was a general belief about God. ANYTHING that happened to anyone was considered the result of God's will. That is why they mistreated cripples. They did not want to treat them any better than the God who crippled them!!! Pure barbaric ignorance and superstition born of fear.It was shed to provoke mercy and compassion the necessary state of mind for forgiveness. God has ALWAYS only wanted mercy and compassion, NOT blood sacrifices. You ignore al those passages that correctly reveal the motives and nature of God in favor of your barbaric and primitive beliefs about God's motives and nature from the OT. Our ancestors were so barbaric that shedding the blood of a completely innocent and loving man was the only stimulus remotely likely to evoke forgiveness in them through mercy and compassion. His perfect agape love endured horrendous scourging and crucifixion without diminishing. He loved even His torturers and murderers, something none of us could have achieved. That is how He was our substitute. He is our "designated hitter" achieving the perfect agape love we could not.
Jesus died for our sins, in order to pay the penalty for them as is plainly taught in the Bible.

Quote:
Wrong. God did not need to be propitiated. We needed to achieve connection with God and none of us were capable of it except Jesus. Jesus was the promised redeemer for our entire species. Redeemers fulfill the promise made. I am tired of trying to disabuse you wrathful God types who actually believe a blood sacrifice of innocents makes sense to you and is not barbaric! I admit, I cannot remotely identify with such a preposterous concept!!
1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

John said otherwise.

If you're tired, then take a nap.
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Old 08-16-2016, 05:51 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
1,543 posts, read 1,306,087 times
Reputation: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I don't know what your beliefs are, but if you haven't received Christ as Savior you're spiritually dead and under condemnation.
You have finally posted something I can agree with.
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Old 08-16-2016, 05:53 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
1,543 posts, read 1,306,087 times
Reputation: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Munchkin View Post
Amen !
His post are always spot on with God's truth and they're definitely led by the Spirit ! Love reading them !
Thanks for your kiind remarks.
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Old 08-16-2016, 07:46 PM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
Reputation: 7792
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
He died BECAUSE OF our ancestors' sins (missing the mark) manifested in their ignorant and barbaric beliefs about God and their brutality. They knew not what they did. They were the barbaric ignorant interpretations of primitives based on fear of God. God NEVER wanted animal sacrifices. That was a general belief about God. ANYTHING that happened to anyone was considered the result of God's will. That is why they mistreated cripples. They did not want to treat them any better than the God who crippled them!!! Pure barbaric ignorance and superstition born of fear.It was shed to provoke mercy and compassion the necessary state of mind for forgiveness. God has ALWAYS only wanted mercy and compassion, NOT blood sacrifices. You ignore al those passages that correctly reveal the motives and nature of God in favor of your barbaric and primitive beliefs about God's motives and nature from the OT. Our ancestors were so barbaric that shedding the blood of a completely innocent and loving man was the only stimulus remotely likely to evoke forgiveness in them through mercy and compassion. His perfect agape love endured horrendous scourging and crucifixion without diminishing. He loved even His torturers and murderers, something none of us could have achieved. That is how He was our substitute. He is our "designated hitter" achieving the perfect agape love we could not. Wrong. God did not need to be propitiated. We needed to achieve connection with God and none of us were capable of it except Jesus. Jesus was the promised redeemer for our entire species. Redeemers fulfill the promise made. I am tired of trying to disabuse you wrathful God types who actually believe a blood sacrifice of innocents makes sense to you and is not barbaric! I admit, I cannot remotely identify with such a preposterous concept!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Jesus died for our sins, in order to pay the penalty for them as is plainly taught in the Bible.
There is no penalty to pay, there was just a deficiency that needed to be corrected in the collective human consciousness. None of us were producing agape love.Jesus came to correct that and He produced a perfect agape love equal to God who IS agape. That connected all human consciousness to God preventing eternal separation from God.
Quote:
1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
The word propitiation, as so many others, was chosen because of the OT CONTEXT of a wrathful God who needed to be appeased by blood sacrifices. You have been shown the other words that more accurately reflect Christ's "designated hitter" status using the context of a God who IS agape. His achievement made our failures (sins) irrelevant.
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