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The most important message ever sent to mankind and nobody wrote his words down as they were spoken? Nobody could hire a scribe? What's up with that?
Not only that but unless you can read ancient Greek or Hebrew, you're stuffed! One would have thought that an omnimax deity could at least ensure that the message reached us in our own languages so that we didn't have to rely on others to give us their interpretation of what it says. If the deity had done that, we wouldn't have 30,000 different denominations of Christianity all insisting that they and only they know what the message is.
There are no records, so I can't believe there were ever any such.
BTW, what were the Dead Sea Scrolls written on? And even if they were written on papyrus you still have the issue that nobody bothered to preserve them.
What do you mean there were no records? There are records. You're just asking for OTHER records. And you're asking a question that can't be answered at the moment, and is only hinted at in the very last chapter of the book of John.
Your statement is illogical, because you say you "can't" believe there ever were any records because there are no records now (as far as you know). And yet.... here you are... talking about an historical event that "has no records" according to you.
It's not often that you hear anyone talking about the celestial transformation of the great golden unicorn to his third and final estate near Mount Aelias.... in the moment of the great sister star's glorious departure from the gloomy eastern sky. No one talks about that event (which I just made up)... because... because.... because.... ... it never happened.
And yet, here you are... asking for the records of the "greatest message ever sent to mankind"......
Last edited by Led Zeppelin; 09-14-2016 at 10:15 AM..
Not only that but unless you can read ancient Greek or Hebrew, you're stuffed! One would have thought that an omnimax deity could at least ensure that the message reached us in our own languages so that we didn't have to rely on others to give us their interpretation of what it says. If the deity had done that, we wouldn't have 30,000 different denominations of Christianity all insisting that they and only they know what the message is.
Nothing you've said here makes any sense.
The Bible HAS BEEN disseminated in probably most languages around the world over the past few hundred years. So, I guess one could argue that the "omnimax" deity has taken care of that problem.
But then you strangely claim that "IF" that miracle had occurred, then what "would have" happened would somehow be the opposite of exactly what HAS happened because the messages reached people in their own languages:
Umpteen different denominations of Christianity (and they all generally agree on the main message) fighting over details and divisions in Biblical understanding.
And a large number of those denominations, by the way, are divided over English translations of the Bible.
The Bible HAS BEEN disseminated in probably most languages around the world over the past few hundred years. So, I guess one could argue that the "omnimax" deity has taken care of that problem.
I wasn't talking about it being translated. I mean presented to us already in our own language.
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But then you strangely claim that "IF" that miracle had occurred, then what "would have" happened would somehow be the opposite of exactly what HAS happened because the messages reached people in their own languages:
No it didn't. I mean first-hand without the need of translation where things could be lost.
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Umpteen different denominations of Christianity (and they all generally agree on the main message) fighting over details and divisions in Biblical understanding.
I wasn't talking about it being translated. I mean presented to us already in our own language.
No it didn't. I mean first-hand without the need of translation where things could be lost.
Yeah. If you say so.
No. It's not because I'm a believer. What you said wouldn't make sense to an objective NON-believer either.
But, at any rate, your gambit really would probably make no difference. If, for instance, the Bible had been magically sent down from a thundering cloud to the English speaking peoples of the world (over and over again, I presume, as English changed again and again.... how would this have prevented arguments and divisions that have occurred ANYWAY amongst the English speaking peoples? How would this have prevented disbelief from occurring?
How would this have prevented OTHER non-inspired Biblical derivatives from being created, like the Book of Mormon or the New World Translation of the JWs? Or the Qu'ran?
First of all, we don't know if anyone ever bothered to make personal notes of what Jesus said at the time that He said them. But since the writing material on which words were written, usually papyrus, didn't have a long life, then unless those personal notes were copied over and over again as were the NT manuscripts, it is highly unlikely that they would have survived to this day.
But what if no one did make any personal notes of what Jesus said at the time He said them? So what? It was an oral culture, and people in oral cultures have good memories. The words that Jesus spoke were passed down in an oral culture during the lifetime of eyewitnesses to what Jesus had said which provided a check and a restraint on how the gospel was orally passed down until the time that the Gospels were written.
And as Jesus had told the apostles, the Holy Spirit would bring to their remembrance the things that He had told them (John 14:26). The writer of the Gospel of John by the way, which church tradition strongly attests to be the apostle John, is shown by a comparison of John 21:24 with John 21:20-23 to have been an eyewitness of Jesus.
In other words, the writer of John had been with Jesus during His public ministry.
The writer probably was NOT wit Jesus as the oldest writings are 200 years AFTER Jesus death.
John may get the credit, but he in no way wrote what we know today as The Book of John...
It is amazing that some think to be true it must be hot off the press. Yet I bet that they believe the historical record of Plato, Cesar, Nero, are true.
God has a perfect memory and He inspired the NT writers what to write
If that is true, why were there so many changes through out the centuries? Perhaps after a few years, god thought about it and realized he had parts of the story wrong so it needed editing?
The most important message ever sent to mankind and nobody wrote his words down as they were spoken? Nobody could hire a scribe? What's up with that?
Peripatetic gurus and holy men were common coin in the region and time in which Jesus is said to have lived (and for the record I have no problem believing in the historical very human man we know as Jesus.)
It may just be that many of the people who allegedly heard him speak were not scribes, or were possibly unable to write.
I am not trying to diminish the worth of the words Jesus is said to have spoken, but the religion founded in his name (not BY him) and it's subsequent rise is largely the result of historical accident.
Even within the Bible, it would seem Jesus didn't have a very large following during the time he is said to have been preaching.
When it is actually happening, few people recognize the potential impact or importance of events that humans later view as very significant.
John may get the credit, but he in no way wrote what we know today as The Book of John...
Well at least we agree on that.
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Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin
No. It's not because I'm a believer. What you said wouldn't make sense to an objective NON-believer either.
But, at any rate, your gambit really would probably make no difference. If, for instance, the Bible had been magically sent down from a thundering cloud to the English speaking peoples of the world (over and over again, I presume, as English changed again and again.... how would this have prevented arguments and divisions that have occurred ANYWAY amongst the English speaking peoples? How would this have prevented disbelief from occurring?
How would this have prevented OTHER non-inspired Biblical derivatives from being created, like the Book of Mormon or the New World Translation of the JWs? Or the Qu'ran?
I would think that if the Bible had been magically sent down from a thundering cloud, there would be...
1. No disbelievers.
2. No different religions.
Why would God preserve the personal notes of someone who may have jotted down something that Jesus said at the time He said it, assuming that any were made, when even the accounts of 'many' referred to by Luke which were compiled were not preserved down to our time? What the New Testament writers recorded however have come down to us because the manuscripts were copied over and over.
There was certainly an oral culture. Luke refers to the oral culture when he refers to the things which were handed down to us. (Luke 1:1-2).
Many had compiled written accounts from those oral traditions which had been handed down.
Luke 1:1 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, 2] just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3] It seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus;
That the Gospel message was rapidly spread orally in the beginning is indicated in Acts 2:47; 6:7; 9:31; 12:24; 13:49; 16:5; 19:20; and 28:31.
The apostles were concerned about spreading the Gospel message, and the fastest way to do that was orally. Since there was an oral culture, and since the Gospels were later written, your assumption is incorrect.
By the way, John 21:24 compared with John 21:20-23 makes it clear that the Gospel of John was written by the disciple whom Jesus loved, which most take to be the apostle John. Therefore, the Gospel of John was written by an eye witness of Jesus.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
First of all, we don't know if anyone ever bothered to make personal notes of what Jesus said at the time that He said them. But since the writing material on which words were written, usually papyrus, didn't have a long life, then unless those personal notes were copied over and over again as were the NT manuscripts, it is highly unlikely that they would have survived to this day.
But what if no one did make any personal notes of what Jesus said at the time He said them? So what? It was an oral culture, and people in oral cultures have good memories. The words that Jesus spoke were passed down in an oral culture during the lifetime of eyewitnesses to what Jesus had said which provided a check and a restraint on how the gospel was orally passed down until the time that the Gospels were written.
And as Jesus had told the apostles, the Holy Spirit would bring to their remembrance the things that He had told them (John 14:26). The writer of the Gospel of John by the way, which church tradition strongly attests to be the apostle John, is shown by a comparison of John 21:24 with John 21:20-23 to have been an eyewitness of Jesus.
In other words, the writer of John had been with Jesus during His public ministry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28
The writer probably was NOT wit Jesus as the oldest writings are 200 years AFTER Jesus death.
John may get the credit, but he in no way wrote what we know today as The Book of John...
No, the oldest writings are not two hundred years after Jesus' death. It is the oldest extant manuscript copies which date to the late 2nd/early 3rd century. The original autograph of the Gospel of John (which is no longer extant) was written c. A.D. 95. There is a difference.
And it states that the writer of that Gospel account is the disciple whom Jesus loved. Therefore the writer of John, which again, most believe to have been John, was an eyewitness to Jesus and His ministry.
Only someone who applies a hermeneutic of suspicion would assume that that the original autograph didn't say at John 21:20-24 that the Gospel of John was written by the disciple whom Jesus loved and that the manuscript copies were altered to make it appear as though the original did make that statement.
F.F. Bruce, who was Rylands Professor of Biblical Criticism and Exegesis at the University of Manchester, England, comments on John 21:24,
''Here we have a plain statement that the beloved disciple is the real author of the Gospel. Even if the words 'who wrote these things' do not mean that his hand held the pen, any more than the language of John 19:19 means that Pilate with his own hand wrote the inscription which was fixed to the cross, they do point to him as the guarantor of the record. . . Indeed, as Dorothy Sayers used to remind us, 'of the four Evangels, St. John's is the only one that claims to be the direct report of an eye-witness . . .'
The Gospel of John, Introduction, Exposition, and Notes, F. F. Bruce, p. 409
And so, yes, the writer of John, identified as the disciple whom Jesus loved, was with Jesus as is so stated at the end of the Gospel account. You are free to either believe that statement in John 21:24 as being factually true, or to disbelieve it. That's your choice.
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One would have thought that an omnimax deity could at least ensure that the message reached us in our own languages so that we didn't have to rely on others to give us their interpretation of what it says. If the deity had done that, we wouldn't have 30,000 different denominations of Christianity all insisting that they and only they know what the message is.
