Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Well, I'm a Jew and Daniel is not a prophecy per se...
Doesn't Nebuchadnezzar's tree dream relate to God's kingdom ? _______ - Matthew 24:14
Big tree - Daniel 4:10-11 - stood for rulership.
First fulfillment Nebby as King of Babylon
Larger fullfillment when the Israelite kings represented God's rulership.
Chop down the tree - Daniel 4:14 - Nebby's rulership interrupted
After 606 BCE Nebby looses his sanity to the point unable to govern.
Larger fullfillment Jerusalem destroyed causing an interrupting in that line of Israelite kings - 607 BCE
Let 7 times pass over - Daniel 4:16
An interval of a literal 7 years for Nebby
Larger fulfiilment 7 'weeks of years' or 2,520 years - Luke 21:24 - Jerusalem trampled on, appointed times of the nations
Your kingdom will be yours again - Daniel 4:26
Nebby regains his sanity and beings governing again.
Larger fulfillment is Now when Jesus begins ruling in heaven as King of God's Kingdom before governing earth wide.
It all has to do with Babylon, Persia, Media, Greece and Rome...Not with anything this far into the future...And the fact that Daniel is not a prophetic book...
::Sigh::Secular contemporaneous historical analysis is an all too frequent common misuse of scriptures. Scriptures are inspirations recorded primarily to aid our consciousnesses in understanding God and our ultimate purpose, NOT to provide a historical or anthropological description of our past! We should NOT be looking for the secular significance of what is written. We should always seek out the spiritual significance since scripture is dedicated to revelations of religious significance rather than secular significance.
Using Daniel as carnal or worldly prophesy, you would actually have to exclude Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome from contention as the beasts (kingdoms) because despite its successes Rome did NOT devour the whole earth (and the world has not ended). Since no other "kingdom" has yet dominated the world, the vision must refer to things unfulfilled so no reasonable symbolic relationships could be attached to any other secular kingdoms. Spiritually, it makes far more sense that it is a religious "kingdom" that Christ will preside over based on what He said to Pilate since God's kingdom is within. Besides, the idea of actual kingdoms is gradually disappearing from human society.
The prophecies in Daniel are repeatedly referred to in discussions of the end days and we have not arrived at them yet..
Daniel 12:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Daniel 12:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Daniel 8:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
Daniel's dream about the four beasts in Daniel 7 is controversial because people keep trying to use a carnal and secular historical bias instead of a spiritual perspective for interpretation. Secular kingdoms are NOT the focus of Daniel's dream in Daniel 7. The Bible is first and foremost a spiritual book. Our consciousnesses are on a spiritual quest, not a carnal secular one.
It is much easier to draw symbolic spiritual connections to Daniel’s dream using as "kingdoms" the religious faiths that have emerged and persist even to this day. It is also important to remember that the order of appearance in the dream has nothing to do with the order of appearance historically. Linear time sequences were NOT part of the mindset of Daniel and our ancient ancestors . . . the character and specifics ALONE identify the "kingdoms" . . . NOT the order of appearance.
Daniel 7 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)
From Daniel 7:2, the origin of the beasts,
. . . And behold the four winds of heaven strove upon the great sea. And four great beasts, different one from another, came up out of the sea.
Thus, the origin of the beasts is heaven, a logical source of religious beliefs.
From Daniel 7:4,
. . . The first was like a lioness and had the wings of an eagle: I beheld till her wings were plucked off and she was lifted up from the earth, and stood upon her feet as a man, and the heart of a man was given to her.
This would be a reference to Judaism (the lion of Juda) from whom the wings of eternity were plucked and the heart of Jesus was given to her in crucifixion.
From Daniel 7:5,
. . . and behold another beast like a bear stood up on one side: and there were three rows in the mouth thereof, and in the teeth thereof, and thus they said to it: Arise, devour much flesh.
This is a reference to Islam, (the bear of Persia) and the rows of teeth are the offshoots of it. Indeed, the holy war or Jihad that established Islam "devoured much flesh" and it continues to do so.
From Daniel 7:6,
. . . After this I beheld, and lo, another like a leopard, and it had upon it four wings as of a fowl, and the beast had four heads, and power was given to it.
The four heads immediately bring to mind Brahmanism (the leopard of India). Originally five heads were assigned to Brahma, but one was destroyed by Siva. The four heads symbolize the main offshoots of it. The power that was given to it was probably the Taoist philosophy, or the way of life which stresses charity (agape love). The wings most likely symbolize the capability of each offshoot for flight into heaven.
From Daniel 7:7,
. . . After this I beheld in the vision of the night, and lo, a fourth beast, terrible and wonderful, and exceeding strong, it had great iron teeth, eating and breaking in pieces, and treading down the rest with its feet.
This would be the Christianity of Roman Catholicism, (the Iron of the industrial revolution) and the eating and breaking in pieces, signifies the splitting into various "Protestant" sects that it has been undergoing during its spread throughout the world.
From Daniel 7:23
23And thus he said: The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be greater than all the kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
(References to the many Christian Kings of Europe cowed under the Church)
From Daniel 7:28
28 Hitherto is the end of the Word.
The phrase "end of the Word," since the Word is God (John 1:1) would seem to further corroborate this general line of interpretation. Since the fourth beast is Christianity, per se, in ALL its flavors and it seems to have special significance, e.g. "shall devour the whole earth" it is easy to be confident that Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Now if only the Churches would realize that and abandon their divisiveness over differences in the "precepts and doctrines of men" created by trying to reconcile the contradictions and inconsistencies in the Bible under the "doctrine of demons" that it must ALL be God's word. They need to focus on the basic message of Christ which is agape love for God and each other.
Unfortunately,Fundamentalists are not going to understand the basic message of Jesus because they are using the context of a wrathful God that Jesus suffered and died to appease. The basic message of Christ - agape love - is buried under the corrupt appeasement context. Even the idea that God sent His Son out of love for us all, is buried in the interpretation that Jesus was just obeying God as the designated scapegoat for us. It is a malicious lie and perversion of the actual teachings and message of Christ unambiguously demonstrated by His life and especially His death. It is a true travesty that seemingly has no resolution until the barbaric and asinine belief in a wrathful, eternally damning God is eliminated forever. Love is the only force that can do that, but it is resisted using the "precepts and doctrines of men" created under the "doctrine of demons" that the Bible is the 100% word of God.
Yes, the huge statue of Daniel 2:31-47 is in connection to the rise and fall of those ^ above ^ great world powers.
What came next after iron Rome - Daniel 2:41-44 - but today's shaky powers made of feet and toes of clay.
Since iron and clay feet do Not mix, or hold up a BIG statue, then that is showing us that the wobbly system we live under is on its way to collapse. We are at the time of the ' toes ' or more like the collapsing ' time of the toenails ' - Daniel 2:44
Doesn't the lion, bear, leopard - Daniel 7:3-7 - match with Revelation 13:2 leopard, bear, lion ?
The above is correct. Daniel's visions are why we understand the vision of John in Revelation.
Are they the exact same named nations as in Daniel. No. Are the current nations remnants of those old nations still part of the beast in Revelation? Yes, they most certainly are. The beast of Revelation has bits and pieces of all those old national governments. Which is like the feet of the statue in Daniel. Made up of all the previous elements but these elements are not able to stick together and the easily collapse.
The reason Daniel isn't considered a prophet by the Jews is for very obvious reasons. Because if just one prophecy is right then the others are too. Including the one of the Great Tree. Notably though, they didn't remove the book. Or perhaps they couldn't? Someone is stopping them from removing it. If Daniel's writings are so wrong, why hold on to it? Why hasn't it disappeared from all Christian and Jewish Bibles?
::Sigh::Secular contemporaneous historical analysis is an all too frequent common misuse of scriptures. Scriptures are inspirations recorded primarily to aid our consciousnesses in understanding God and our ultimate purpose, NOT to provide a historical or anthropological description of our past! We should NOT be looking for the secular significance of what is written. We should always seek out the spiritual significance since scripture is dedicated to revelations of religious significance rather than secular significance.
Using Daniel as carnal or worldly prophesy, you would actually have to exclude Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome from contention as the beasts (kingdoms) because despite its successes Rome did NOT devour the whole earth (and the world has not ended). Since no other "kingdom" has yet dominated the world, the vision must refer to things unfulfilled so no reasonable symbolic relationships could be attached to any other secular kingdoms. Spiritually, it makes far more sense that it is a religious "kingdom" that Christ will preside over based on what He said to Pilate since God's kingdom is within. Besides, the idea of actual kingdoms is gradually disappearing from human society.
The prophecies in Daniel are repeatedly referred to in discussions of the end days and we have not arrived at them yet..
Daniel 12:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Daniel 12:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Daniel 8:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
Daniel's dream about the four beasts in Daniel 7 is controversial because people keep trying to use a carnal and secular historical bias instead of a spiritual perspective for interpretation. Secular kingdoms are NOT the focus of Daniel's dream in Daniel 7. The Bible is first and foremost a spiritual book. Our consciousnesses are on a spiritual quest, not a carnal secular one.
It is much easier to draw symbolic spiritual connections to Daniel’s dream using as "kingdoms" the religious faiths that have emerged and persist even to this day. It is also important to remember that the order of appearance in the dream has nothing to do with the order of appearance historically. Linear time sequences were NOT part of the mindset of Daniel and our ancient ancestors . . . the character and specifics ALONE identify the "kingdoms" . . . NOT the order of appearance.
Daniel 7 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)
From Daniel 7:2, the origin of the beasts,
. . . And behold the four winds of heaven strove upon the great sea. And four great beasts, different one from another, came up out of the sea.
Thus, the origin of the beasts is heaven, a logical source of religious beliefs.
From Daniel 7:4,
. . . The first was like a lioness and had the wings of an eagle: I beheld till her wings were plucked off and she was lifted up from the earth, and stood upon her feet as a man, and the heart of a man was given to her.
This would be a reference to Judaism (the lion of Juda) from whom the wings of eternity were plucked and the heart of Jesus was given to her in crucifixion.
From Daniel 7:5,
. . . and behold another beast like a bear stood up on one side: and there were three rows in the mouth thereof, and in the teeth thereof, and thus they said to it: Arise, devour much flesh.
This is a reference to Islam, (the bear of Persia) and the rows of teeth are the offshoots of it. Indeed, the holy war or Jihad that established Islam "devoured much flesh" and it continues to do so.
From Daniel 7:6,
. . . After this I beheld, and lo, another like a leopard, and it had upon it four wings as of a fowl, and the beast had four heads, and power was given to it.
The four heads immediately bring to mind Brahmanism (the leopard of India). Originally five heads were assigned to Brahma, but one was destroyed by Siva. The four heads symbolize the main offshoots of it. The power that was given to it was probably the Taoist philosophy, or the way of life which stresses charity (agape love). The wings most likely symbolize the capability of each offshoot for flight into heaven.
From Daniel 7:7,
. . . After this I beheld in the vision of the night, and lo, a fourth beast, terrible and wonderful, and exceeding strong, it had great iron teeth, eating and breaking in pieces, and treading down the rest with its feet.
This would be the Christianity of Roman Catholicism, (the Iron of the industrial revolution) and the eating and breaking in pieces, signifies the splitting into various "Protestant" sects that it has been undergoing during its spread throughout the world.
From Daniel 7:23
23And thus he said: The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be greater than all the kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
(References to the many Christian Kings of Europe cowed under the Church)
From Daniel 7:28
28 Hitherto is the end of the Word.
The phrase "end of the Word," since the Word is God (John 1:1) would seem to further corroborate this general line of interpretation. Since the fourth beast is Christianity, per se, in ALL its flavors and it seems to have special significance, e.g. "shall devour the whole earth" it is easy to be confident that Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Now if only the Churches would realize that and abandon their divisiveness over differences in the "precepts and doctrines of men" created by trying to reconcile the contradictions and inconsistencies in the Bible under the "doctrine of demons" that it must ALL be God's word. They need to focus on the basic message of Christ which is agape love for God and each other.
Unfortunately,Fundamentalists are not going to understand the basic message of Jesus because they are using the context of a wrathful God that Jesus suffered and died to appease. The basic message of Christ - agape love - is buried under the corrupt appeasement context. Even the idea that God sent His Son out of love for us all, is buried in the interpretation that Jesus was just obeying God as the designated scapegoat for us. It is a malicious lie and perversion of the actual teachings and message of Christ unambiguously demonstrated by His life and especially His death. It is a true travesty that seemingly has no resolution until the barbaric and asinine belief in a wrathful, eternally damning God is eliminated forever. Love is the only force that can do that, but it is resisted using the "precepts and doctrines of men" created under the "doctrine of demons" that the Bible is the 100% word of God.
I pray for you Mystic.
You may see in part.
The 4th beast with 10 horns is an hour
To the Church in Philadelphia
…Look at those who belong to the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews but are liars instead. I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and they will know that I love you. Because you have kept My command to endure with patience, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.…
To the Church in Philadelphia
…Look at those who belong to the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews but are liars instead. I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and they will know that I love you. Because you have kept My command to endure with patience, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.…
Plus coming out of the sea is not out of heaven at all. The sea never refers to heaven.
Mind you an hour can be a long time as John said:
NIV 1 John 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
Plus coming out of the sea is not out of heaven at all. The sea never refers to heaven.
Mind you an hour can be a long time as John said:
NIV 1 John 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
Plus coming out of the sea is not out of heaven at all. The sea never refers to heaven.
An interesting subject, mankind is in the sea and Jesus came making fishers of men to save people from the waters. Noah was taken from the water as Moses was, as Jonah.
That 3 million gallon sea standing in the court is the sea of man, if a third of the creatures of the sea die, it isn't talking
I pray for you Mystic.
You may see in part.
The 4th beast with 10 horns is an hour
To the Church in Philadelphia
…Look at those who belong to the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews but are liars instead. I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and they will know that I love you. Because you have kept My command to endure with patience, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.…
Thanks for the prayers. You are in mine as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA
Plus coming out of the sea is not out of heaven at all. The sea never refers to heaven.
Your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired.
From Daniel 7:2, the origin of the beasts,
. . . And behold the four winds of heaven strove upon the great sea. And four great beasts, different one from another, came up out of the sea.
Thus, the origin of the beasts is the four winds of heaven, a logical source of religious beliefs that are God-breathed or inspired.
The above is correct. Daniel's visions are why we understand the vision of John in Revelation.
Are they the exact same named nations as in Daniel. No. Are the current nations remnants of those old nations still part of the beast in Revelation? Yes, they most certainly are. The beast of Revelation has bits and pieces of all those old national governments. Which is like the feet of the statue in Daniel. Made up of all the previous elements but these elements are not able to stick together and the easily collapse.
The reason Daniel isn't considered a prophet by the Jews is for very obvious reasons. Because if just one prophecy is right then the others are too. Including the one of the Great Tree. Notably though, they didn't remove the book. Or perhaps they couldn't? Someone is stopping them from removing it. If Daniel's writings are so wrong, why hold on to it? Why hasn't it disappeared from all Christian and Jewish Bibles?
The reason Daniel isn't considered a prophet is because he's not...Christians come along and all of a sudden want to claim it to be prophecy because without it being prophecy their book of Revelation fails because they have nothing else that they can connect it to...Daniel had to do with immediate things, not several thousand years into the future...Mental gynastics is how you get them to sync...
The reason Daniel isn't considered a prophet is because he's not...Christians come along and all of a sudden want to claim it to be prophecy because without it being prophecy their book of Revelation fails because they have nothing else that they can connect it to...Daniel had to do with immediate things, not several thousand years into the future...Mental gynastics is how you get them to sync...
No mental gymnastics need. If a person doesn't see the similarities between Daniel and Revelation then they don't want to see it.
And someone saying Daniel isn't a prophet by simply saying so, must present proof which I keep asking from you and still fail to provide. Perhaps you are used to be people just believing you because of your position in your religion. A person's position in their religion or their even their religion isn't important to me, only what they can prove using the Bible.
Jesus referred to Daniel as a prophet. (Mt 24:15) Those listening to Jesus didn't correct Jesus. There is no evidence that Daniel was not a prophet. What you would have to provide is proof from the Bible that Daniel wasn't a prophet. You word and reasonings are not enough.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
