Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Tdinh, you're vomiting verses all over the place (the Pharisees were very good at this). You are not answering or debating or researching anything given to you. How are we supposed to debate this way?
(by the way, terrifying people into the pews is not of God. These people are not coming to Christ. They are being captured by the most revolting doctrine ever to hit mankind)
Hi Legoman, this is long, but I await your reply. Please don't hit a point here or there, please address what I put down on this since I put a bit of time into it, ok.
Ok, you state the following: FYI I believe in universal salvation through Christ - AKA the victorious gospel of Jesus Christ - the idea that eventually somehow, God will be able to save every single human who has ever existed - they will all come to Christ eventually. I believe God desires this and He is able to achieve His desire.
I absolutely do not believe in universal salvation one bit; I have explained why already, but I will do it again, more in depth. But first, let me give you my opinion from my knowledge of scriptures, but not in a way that it is far left. If what your saying is true, then what Jesus did on the cross would be futile, it would be non-sense. When one believes in universal salvation that means I can do whatever I want to do, I can live however I want to live, I can reject Christ, spit on Him, and not heed a single warning that the Bible portrays. I will get to the verses you put below; however, if the Bible was made up of only two verses or possibly three, like the ones you posed, yes, I could potentially believe that.
People already do live however they want to live, reject Christ, spit on Him, and not heed a single warning in the bible. Are you saying these people cannot be saved? There are plenty of people who do these things, and yet are led to a point where they realize they need to repent.
Quote:
Here are a couple of hard hitting scripture to make a point of the above paragraph:
Hebrews 10:26-31 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Basically the writer of Hebrews was talking to those who know Christ in the above verse because he is making reference to those who received the knowledge of truth. He is also stating if those who have this knowledge keep sinning, one would have a fearful judgment and raging fire that will consume the enemies, I said enemies, of God. He is treating those who trample the Son of God underfoot as an enemy to love wickedness rather than truth.
If what your stating is true, than anyone who lives like that has nothing to worry about, and do not have to worry about a fearful judgment that will consume God’s enemy’s, and no, it would not be a dreadful thing to fall into His hands, because what your claiming they will eventually be forgiven and taken into His kingdom, which is false.
I never said God's judgments are a picnic. People will reap what they sow. But none of the verses you posted above are referencing anything about eternal torment.
Quote:
Romans 3:5-8
But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!
When people have your type of thought process, one can conclude that God is so loving that I can keep on doing what I am doing, but fail to ignore the above verse in Romans. People state, “God is not a wrathful God, He is loving, just etc…” and He loving, but He is a God of justice and is Holy, and His wrath will be poured out in full strength against His enemies and against those who love wickedness as opposed to the truth and grace of His word.
I never said what you are suggesting here. You are saying people can do whatever they want without consequence. That is not what I said at all. Everyone will reap what they sow. Everyone will feel the consequences of their actions. However this is nothing to do with eternal torment.
Quote:
You also state: I don't think you quite understood what I was saying about Mat 5. Jesus was not talking about "hell". He was talking about Gehenna - referencing the literal valley of hinnom. But if as you say by 'Gehenna', Jesus really meant 'never-ending hell', why saying Raca to someone not also but one in danger of 'Gehenna'?
I guess I am not answering the question,
No, you didn't answer the question, but carry on...
Quote:
however, I will answer to your point of Hell, in which you are taking an Old Testament version “Valley of Hinnom,” into literal New Testament teaching. Now tell me does this make sense when we replace valley of hinnom with hell:
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body inhell. Matthew 23:33
“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Luke 12:5
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.
The above verse makes no logical sense, for Jesus’ even says has He has the authority to kill the body, in the grave, and then, therefore, throw you into hell. Not kill you in the grave to the valley of hinnom and have authority to throw you into the valley of hinnom. Makes no logical sense.
The word in each of those verses is Gehenna, which literally means Valley of Hinnom. This cannot be disputed - it is a simple fact which you can check in any concordance. The question is what did Jesus mean by 'Valley of Hinnom'? He was referring to judgment. NOT eternal torment. Don't make the mistake of equating "judgment" with "eternal hell". God renders judgment for the purpose of setting things right and for the purpose of teaching righteousness (Isa 26:9 for example).
Quote:
Here is a description of Hell too: 2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment.
There the word is tartarus, meaning abyss.
Quote:
Notice, He did not send them to the valley of hinnom putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment, no, He sent them to hell putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment.
No, he put them in the abyss. Hell is not there in the original greek.
Quote:
Now, I have read, listened to, and studied the book of Revelation, which is God’ wrath upon mankind for 7 years because of sin. Abyss is the same place of hell and tell me how that is translated in greek/Hebrew or any other translation as valley of hinnom.
You are getting moreso into eschatology, I don't think Revelations is about 7 years of God's wrath. That is another [huge] topic....
Quote:
Luke 8:31
And they [demons] begged Jesus repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.
Revelation 9
1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.
7 The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8 Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10 They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).
Others here who have never read Revelation, who don’t understand it, give me their opinion about this subject, so I am not interested in any other interpretation other then the one presented, clearly, as such- Clearly, God’s wrath is being poured out in full strength, for a 5th angel sounds the trumpet. So, John, based on his finite mind see’s something as a star come hurled to the earth, in which it is given the key to the shaft of the Abyss, essentially Hell. Read further and you can see the demonic creatures are told not to harm grass or plant or tree on the earth. Notice I put in bold earth, for it is no symbolism or some analogy.The scorpions were allowed to torture those who do not have God’s seal on their foreheads for 5 months.
Let me again clarify, no where in scripture are the following words used as symbolism when explained:
1) angel= God’s messengers, for they do God’s bidding of protection and wrath.
2) Abyss= Hell- the demons who roamed the earth, asked Jesus not to put them there.
3) Earth= the world we live in
You get my point.
This is your opinion. You realize the book of Revelation is describing a vision that John had of Jesus Christ (it is the revelation of Christ) - and it was signified - meaning given in symbols.
Quote:
Here is the final scripture: Revelation 20:3
He threw him [satan] into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
If you want me to explain further, I can. But you get the jist of it. Abyss also is not the valley of Hinnom- it is a temporary place for those who do not know Christ, in which Abyss/Hell will be thrown into the Lake of Fire- which is the second death-
There are many problems here. You are taking the book of Revelations, which is full of symbols - candles, stars, lampstands, abyss, trees, horses, beasts, etc. and trying to treat certain symbols as literal to fit the eternal torment view. It doesn't work. The lake of fire is a symbol of something - something that will literally happen, but certainly not a literal lake of fire burning people so they will be tortured forever.
You are confusing terms and calling them all "hell". Hades is not "hell" - it is a place where the dead go to rest, quite often simply called the grave. Gehenna is not hell - it is a literal place of judgment, which Jesus used to symbolize the process of judgment. The abyss is also not 'hell'.
Quote:
Revelation 20: The Judgment of Satan
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. The Judgment of the Dead
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
So, guess to explain further, Hell, is temporary. Hmmmm, did I just say that,
See how your terminology is confused - you admit here that "hell" is temporary. Many people think the lake of fire is hell, yet it is called no such thing.
Quote:
for it is a place people without Christ will be until their fate is thrown into the lake of fire where they will tormented day and night for ever and ever…anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
The phrase "forever and ever" is improperly translated. Why add another "ever" to something that is "forever"? The actual meaning is to the ages of the ages.
In any case, notice it is only the beast and the false prophet who are tormented, for ages of ages. It is not specified how long the others are thrown into it in Rev 20:14. You are assuming it is forever. But that would contradict the following verses:
Quote:
You also ask me about these verses: 1 Tim 2
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
1) 1 Tim. 2:3, This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
**First, friend, your taking the true context of what was meant to be portrayed**
So obviously I am taking the verses out of context yet you are keeping the verses in completely correct context right? That is what you are saying: "I am right and you are wrong". The verse says God wants or wills to have all men be saved, but you say that just won't happen. Hard to see how you can say that, seeing as you think God is sovereign.
Quote:
Here is the KJV, that you quoted again: Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Here are other corresponding versions with that-
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (NKJV)
for he wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.(NLT)
who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (NIV)
who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.(ESV)
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the *knowledge of the truth (NASB)
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.(RSV)
He desires, wants, takes delight in etc…, that, however, does not mean that he pushes, prods, or is forceful in this area of man’s life.
It doesn't matter if it is translated as "will" or "desire". God does all He desires (Isaiah 46:10, Isaiah 55:11) and does everything He pleases (Job 23:13). Surely since God desires to save all men, it would also please Him to save all men, and that which pleases Him, He will do. Therefore He will save all men.
Quote:
2) 1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
** Yes, this makes sense, however, it is for the entire world, those who are willing repent of them and acknowledge them. Do you know what repentance means- to confess and turn away. Unfortunately, a lot of people of the world will not be doing this.
Yes I know what repentance means. The bible says all will turn back to Him. Repentance is turning back to God - giving up the sinful way. It is God who leads and grants repentance (Rom 2:4). Regardless you confuse the point on 1 John 2:2 - if He has atoned for the sins of the world, then all sins are already atoned for. He is the savior of the world:
Quote:
3)1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
** Jesus is the Savior of the world, however, not the entire world will accept that.
If He doesn't save the world, then He cannot rightly be called "Savior of the World".
Quote:
The next verse, Legoman, is this If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.
Agreed. All will acknowledge ultimately because every knee will bow and every tongue will swear allegiance to Him and praise Him joyfully (Isa 45:22-23, Phil 2:9-11, Rev 5:13, Psalm 22:27, etc).
Quote:
If, the Bible said, if, anyone acknowledges etc…, not when; there is a big difference in that single word alone.
Everyone will acknowledge Him eventually. And so it pleases God to save all of them - so He will indeed save all of them.
Quote:
This is also what you state: Jesus was sent to atone for all sin - save the world - do you think He is going to fail in this mission?
He, Jesus, has already fulfilled His mission.
Agreed, and since He has already fulfilled that mission, the only thing left to happen is for God's plan to play out in time and we will witness Him saving the entire world, eventually.
Quote:
He atoned for sin to bring man to God. But, I tell you be careful in what you preach if it is off centered from God’s word. I do not know you, and I know briefly about what you believe, though I do not know where you stand with God or if you are born of His Spirit, however, I caution you in the following:
2 Peter 2:1-10
False Teachers and Their Destruction
“But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.”
“For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness[b] to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh[c] and despise authority.”
Now read the entire above scriptures and tell me how God is not a God of wrath, hates those who fight against truth, “secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves,” How God did not spare the angels of darkness who sinned and sent them to hell, not the valley of hinnom, but hell, “putting them in chains of darkness[b] to be held for judgment,” destroyed the earth and preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.
Consider that eternal torment is the false teaching. Quoting 2 Peter 2 is simply rhetoric to say "I am right you are wrong".
I never said God does not have wrath. The only claim I make is that ultimately God can and will save all men. That is not withstanding the possible eons and ages of judgment and wrath and correction that men will have to endure.
You bring up Sodom & Gomorrah, yet they are not burning forever. They were destroyed. Yet we are told that Sodom & Gomorrah will be restored to their former estate. They will be reconciled. Not reborn in their old sinful state, but remade, and restored.
Quote:
You see friend, He is a God of love, but He is a Holy God. Those who fight against the truth of His word will be held accountable for what they teach and say.
NO. No BUTs. "But" indicates a contradiction - there are no contradictions in God.
God is a God of love AND He is a Holy God. That is why He will use His judgment to correct and teach us righteousness. That is why He holds us accountable so we can understand what we did wrong. And that is how He will restore and reconcile us all. By teaching us right from wrong. This is not meant to be completed in this age, but in the future ages to come, when ultimately God will become all in all.
Quote:
You also state: It seemed you were mocking another poster above because you don't think God will reconcile all things, nor that every one will bow and swear allegiance to God. Yet God has sworn this will happen.
Yes, I was mocking, it is taken out of context. I believe everyone will bow to God, yes, this is very true, however, those who fight against truth and die in wickedness will be forced to bow, and though they may hate Him and His words, no one will have a choice. That was my point. It’s great (sarcastic) a person can show me a scripture and tell me it’s truth, however, I can point to a slew full of scriptures to show otherwise.
Scripture does not contradict scripture. You take plain verses that say God will save all men or God will reconcile all and suggest they can't mean that because you think other verses vaguely suggest eternal torment.
Just above a few paragraphs you said God is not "pushing" or "prodding" or "forceful" in the "area of a man's life" relating to salvation, yet here you now contradict your self saying God will FORCE men to bow to Him, as if God needed some kind of false acknowledgment.
There are so many contradictions in what you are saying here. Think about it. You claim God really desires to save all men, but just can't because He doesn't want to force anyone. Yet when God finally has His chance, and everyone is bowing and acknowledging Him, it is actually just a "forced" acknowledgment and God sends them all of to hell instead of saving them all (do you really think God desires to save all at this point?). Your paint a very fickle picture of God.
God wants to save all men.
God doesn't want to "force" anyone to be saved.
God forces all men to bow before Him.
God doesn't want to save them.
Hmm... this "god" you describe sounds confused...
Quote:
Now you and one other person here keep stating the following: One thing you must understand is that the words for "eternal", "forever", etc. are mistranslated from the greek word aion/aionios. Aion means an age and aionios simply means pertaining to age/ages. Aionios does not mean "limited time" - it simply means pertaining to ages.
So when God is described as "aionios" - it means that God is pertaining/relating to the ages of time that He has created.
So let’s say the above verse is true, then who is to say God’s timetable of ages of ages is endless, which is not a timetable because He lives outside time, then it goes for a time period, that is really no time period, because it keep going.
You fail to ignore that God is eternal, though, and He is not a God of time or ages of ages, for He is eternal. So if your translation is true, then you are putting a time table on God, Himself.
Your words are mixed up here - I don't know what you are trying to say. Let me clarify:
God is eternal.
Yet He operates within the ages He has created.
Thus God is pertaining to His ages. ie. aionios.
Have you ever heard a popular Christian song that calls Him the "Rock of the ages"? Does that make God any less eternal because He is referred to in this way? No of course not.
Quote:
To conclude with this though, let’s again refer back to the unpardonable sin, in which you say- Aionios can also be transliterated as "eonian", which is what the Concordant Literal translation does. The so called "unpardonable sin" is not really unpardonable forever - it is just not pardoned for the eon. All sins will be forgiven.
Again, I tell you be careful because you are telling Christ He is a liar by stating and teaching that though He states:
Luke 12:4-5;9-10
I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him… I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God. But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God. And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
The so-called "unpardonable sin" is only unpardonable for this age and the next. Beyond that all sin is forgiven - because that is why Christ died - He was the atonement for all sin. We already established this, right?
Quote:
Again, “fear Him who has the authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.” Jesus also clarifies that those who speaks against Him will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
Also, in Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
And, in Mark 3:29
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”
The above verses means that if someone blasphemes the Holy Spirit, they will never be forgiven in this age or the age to come, they are guilty of an eternal sin.
Look at Mark 3:29 closely in a concordance. You will see it is speaking of aion/aionios - pertaining to an age. This corresponds exactly with Mat 12:32 - "in this age or in the age to come". There is more than one age to come in the future my friend.
Quote:
Because if Jesus is stating that if one does it, that means it is possible for someone to do. So therefore your whole doctrine of salvation for everyone is thrown out the window because these scriptures alone talk about an unforgiveable sin that will never, ever, ever, ever be forgiven of, in this age or the age to come, it’s eternal.
Not really. Keep researching aion/aionios.
Quote:
This is also what you state: Regarding Judas: he was the one "doomed to destruction" - Judas was destined to betray Christ, there was no way he would not betray Christ - because God had already planned on it happening. Without Judas, Jesus would never have been crucified and would never have died for our sins. So Judas played a necessary part. Do you think he deserves to burn forever for that? That is not what the scripture is saying. God will have all men to be saved - that includes Judas.
You are sadly, sadly mistaken and do not know the power of God. God is omnipotent, He knows beginning to end. Judas was a man like you and I that, on his on volition and will, turn against Christ. Christ did not force Him, but yes he was doomed because God already knew he (Judas) was going to do it.
So God simply used Judas as a convenient scapegoat? Lucky thing for God it worked out that way. Lets be realistic here. You already said God knows all and can work all things - Judas was put in the position and played the role he was destined to play. It was that way because God has declared all things that will happen, and works all things according to His plan (Isa 46:10-11, Eph 1:11). God is in control here, not Judas. God is not somehow responding to what Judas did. Judas is doing exactly as God knew He would because God had already planned that Jesus would be the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
Quote:
You still fail to answer what Jesus meant by “woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” Tell me, why would it have been better for him.
There are divergent views on that statement - some believe it was refering to Christ, not Judas. It would be better for Christ if Judas had not been born... for example. Go research it. There was an entire thread on this topic a few months ago.
Quote:
If Jesus, being all knowing, knew Judas would eventually be in His kingdom one day and wipe away this grave sin, why would it have been better? Doesn’t make sense.
Because you are interpreting this through the carnal view that says Judas deserves to burn forever, for something He was destined to do.
Does that make sense?
Quote:
You state also: You do realize that all people will go through fire (1 Cor 3) - the bad works of straw and wood are burned up and the gold and gems are purified. So why do you think this fire is not for torture yet the lake of fire is simply for endless torture?
You again are misinterpreting scripture, it is talking about a man’s works being wood, hay or straw, or gold, if gold, then what he has will survive, if hay or wood, it will be burnt up. God, ultimately, knows what is in a man’s heart to judge one’s works.
So you don't take this passage literally, but you take the Lake of fire literally? The lake of fire from the book of Revelations - which is a book of symbols from a vision? What you say makes no sense.
Quote:
Let me put in it’s proper context:
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
The foundation is Christ. If I build my entire life for what I am claiming as His kingdom, yes, my works (as I put in bold) will be burnt up. If my ambition or love is there, but I am not building on His foundation, I may very well be saved but everything I did here on earth is pointless. Let’s put this scripture in context, please.
That is all good. So you see that fire burning up works is NOT LITERAL. Just as in Revelations it is NOT NECESSARILY LITERAL. Spiritual fire burns up the carnal nature. That is what it does in 1 Cor 3, and that is what it does in Rev 20.
Quote:
But I went to that site of hoax’s bill’s testimony and it was garbage, no offense.
But I have told many here before, Bill’s testimony doesn’t and will not change my view of what scripture states, it only strengthened it. I know the Bible well enough to know if I am being fed rubbish, and I know when I am being taught the truth. Why? Because I read it, that’s why. I have studied it, and are in Bible study’s about it.
Of course I want all men to be saved, that’s why I tell people of the love of Christ, why I lead people to Christ. I already know it’s His love that leads people to repentance. I don’t brow beat people, or preach one sided of the Word. I discuss it in context.
It seems your context is "many people will burn forever". A context that is presupposed by your assumptions - most likely you have been taught that and accepted it without thinking about it too much.
Quote:
Your conclusion: One final point: do you believe God is sovereign over all things? If not, how can He be God? Like it or not, if not all men are saved, there can only be 2 possibilities:
1. God is unable to save all
2. God is unwilling to save all
Which do you believe? I believe neither and instead believe the victorious gospel of Christ - He came to save the world, He is the savior of all people, He will be able to do it.
Of course I believe God is soverign over all things. However, I do not believe in an unscriptural god that you believe.
I don't believe in the unscriptural god you believe in either.
Quote:
Your god is not the God of the Bible. Your god is not holy, nor a warrior. My God is lamb and a lion, a holy God, a warrior, loving, merciful, but hates sin.
You don't understand what I am saying if you think I said God is not holy, nor a lion, etc.
But the question remains. Why does your "god" not save everyone? Is he not able or does he not want to? Those are the only 2 conclusions possible. At least the Calvinists are honest in they say that God does not want to save everyone. Be honest with your own viewpoint.
Quote:
Your two comments about unable to or unwilling is not Bible based.
Its a simple question based on your own beliefs. You say God is sovereign. You say God desires to save everyone. If God is sovereign and desires to save everyone, it will be so. But you say it won't be so. So you are contradicting yourself.
Quote:
Again, I ask you, what’s the point of the Bible, then? If what your saying is true, though I would never do this, then I can spit on Christ, be a ravenous liar, murderer, adultery, blaspheme the Holy Spirit, ignore all of the warnings of God’s anger and wrath in the Old Testament, ignore Jesus’ warning, the disciples and apostles warnings in the New Testament. Christ died for nothing, died in vain, if what you proclaiming as truth.
The point of the bible is its useful for instruction to teach us how to live. Just as Christ came to teach us how to live.
You do realize that Saul commited all those sins you said above, yet he was saved and converted to the great apostle Paul. He was converted in an instant in a flash of light. God saved Paul by destroying Saul. Get it? God did it. God SAVES us. We don't save ourselves.
And since God desires to save all, He will do that too.
And so He has declared that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess His name, swear allegiance to Him, and praise His holy name joyfully.
Its good news for all men just like the angels proclaimed to the shepherds in Luke 2:10.
John 3:3
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. ”
2 Peter 2
False Teachers and Their Destruction
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. 4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness[b] to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh[c] and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from[d] the Lord. 12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.
13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[e] 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer,[f] who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.
17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
Now read the above in bold again. For someone to know truth or know Christ and have a thought pattern of "God is so loving, I can continue to do this or that contradicts His word, they would have been better to have not known the way of righteousness." As scripture states here in Peter, f this is so, "then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment," which means the wicked will be punished, not refined in a little fire and be welcomed in as you suppose.
Again, heed the warnings of scripture:
1 Corinthians-
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.
Again, in the above verses, there is no universal salvation who love everything against God's truth. Those who do not know Christ will be temporarily confined to Hades, after The Great White Throne Judgment, the devil and his angels and those hell, will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur- the second death.
Again, in Galatians 5:
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Again, in Ephesians 5
5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[a] 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.
There is absolutely no universal salvation in these warnings, as you suppose.
I fully agree no wrongdoers, adulterers, drunks, immoral, etc will inherit the Kingdom of God.
And this proves that God will not save all people... exactly how?
And again when quoting 2 Peter 2 you should always look in the mirror first. Eternal torment is one of the doctrines that we were warned about...
First off, Pcamps, that was not a parable. Show many anywhere in the New Testament that Jesus gives names when He is giving a parable. Please show me. If God did not want that part of scripture in the Bible, then He would have not put it there. Again, my belief on the man's testimony has nothing to do with convincing someone more that that what he seen was true as opposed to someone rising from the dead.
Don't believe it then. In your eyes, it really doesn't matter anyhow because I don't even have to accept (sarcastic) the cross of Christ, because He is so loving He will over look it anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
Are you serious ?, i have already shown you by the parable (Lazarus and the rich man) which you believe is about hell, that if one rising from the dead will not convince anyone, neither will Bill Weise's tale of going to hell and back. Or do you believe Weise's tale is more convincing than someone rising from the dead ?.
Please do not tell me some have believed in Jesus because of his tale, i'm not having it.....
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
This is the effect of believing the good news not a message or tale about hell.
Because people not born again, as Jesus states who live in sin, will not inherit His kingdom. IF people live in sin, they are lost, they are not saved, they are considered unbelievers, thats why. These are the people who do not accept the cross of Christ.
I am off to work, I will respond, LEgoman, when I have free time later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
I fully agree no wrongdoers, adulterers, drunks, immoral, etc will inherit the Kingdom of God.
And this proves that God will not save all people... exactly how?
And again when quoting 2 Peter 2 you should always look in the mirror first. Eternal torment is one of the doctrines that we were warned about...
But I went to that site of hoax’s bill’s testimony and it was garbage, no offense. But I have told many here before, Bill’s testimony doesn’t and will not change my view of what scripture states, it only strengthened it. I know the Bible well enough to know if I am being fed rubbish, and I know when I am being taught the truth. Why? Because I read it, that’s why. I have studied it, and are in Bible study’s about it.
I really suggest you go to that link and actually read it. Here it is again:
Here is the scripture in a few different versions-
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (KJV)
it says not willing, that any should perish, which means some will perish.
Your explaination is noted, but the reconcilation of all things still takes place.
Quote:
Let's say for argument sake what your saying is true, ok. That means I do not need to worry or heed any warnings in scripture that state-
Perhaps that is what you think, but my beliefs do not include the idea that we should not heed warnings so your poiint has no bearing against what I believe.
Your sarcastic posting after this is quite amusing, I like a good dose of sarcasm to make a point. But you will need to find someone that actually believes the way you sarcastically represent things.
Because people not born again, as Jesus states who live in sin, will not inherit His kingdom. IF people live in sin, they are lost, they are not saved, they are considered unbelievers, thats why. These are the people who do not accept the cross of Christ.
I am off to work, I will respond, LEgoman, when I have free time later.
I believe many people are confused on what the "Kingdom of God" is.
The phrase "Kingdom of God" is actually referring to those reigning with Christ. Here it is in Young's Literal:
Matt 7:21 `Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens
Let me ask you - who are they going to be reigning over? Themselves? For what purpose?
Gen 28:14 Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring. 15 I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.”
Gal 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
This is God's plan in a nutshell. Back in Genesis we see God promised Abraham that his seed would bless all people. Later on in Romans 9, Galations 3, and other places we learn that Abraham's seed is not his physical lineage, but is referring to those who are in Christ.
So we can understand that to mean that those who are in Christ are going to bless all families - all people. How do they bless them? By ruling over them while they are suffering endlessly in hell? No I think not.
God's promise to Abraham was that all families of the earth would be blessed through His seed. I ask you is your family really blessed if you find out your great grandmother is burning in pain forever? Some blessing...
So what we have is that Abraham's seed - those in Christ - will bless the world. Those who are in Christ's Kingdom - reigning with HIM - are Abraham's seed.
That is the purpose for Christ's Kingdom - to bless the rest of the people. How will they be blessed? Certainly not by being tormented forever!
1 Cor 6:2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels?
Rev 5:10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.
Those in Christ's Kingdom are to be kings, judges, ministers, and priests. Again I ask: who are they reigning over? Who are they judging? Who are they ministering to? For what purpose?
Remember: Abraham's seed will bless ALL families, ALL people!
That is the purpose. Those in Christ's Kingdom are to reign over the others, being judges - teaching them righteousness (that is what judgment is for - see Isaiah 26:9 for example), ministering to them, the others are subjects of the Kingdom. So they are not reigning in the Kingdom, but they are subject to it:
Matthew 8:12
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
No one says this judgment is going to be a walk in the park. Judgment can cause you to cry and grind your teeth as you experience the consequences of your actions and realize what you did wrong. Judgment causes you to see yourself for what you really are. It can be very shameful (see eonian shame mentioned in Daniel 12:2). That can be a tough thing to go through - but that is what leads to repentance. It is necessary. People weep and gnash their teeth on this very forum! Perhaps they are going through judgment (correction) right now! It is all necessary so that people will turn back to God. And eventually all will turn back to God (Psalm 22:27) - God has sworn it will happen - God has sworn that all people will swear allegiance to Him! That is powerful.
And so you can see that not everyone will be reigning with Christ in His Kingdom. This in no way precludes the possibility of a universal salvation. Your error is assuming "Kingdom of Heaven" = "Heaven" = "Final blissful end state" and assuming that if someone does not reign in the Kingdom, that they must be suffering endlessly forever.
God is reconciling the world to Himself. He has promised Abraham that all the peoples of the world will be blessed through His seed. Is God going to break that promise? NO. And so all people will see the salvation of God (Luke 3:6).
Its good news for all men, just like the angels told the shepherds in Luke 2:10.
The study there clearly shows that Bill's testimony is rubbish, and he contradicts himself and the bible many times.
Heck just read the first paragraph and look at the picture. Do you really think Bill saw Demons that came out of a hollywood horror flic?
You really SHOULD read at least part of the link Legoman has provided Tdinh....it's quite powerful and revealing and I have thought of printing it and sending it to my father, who is the most stubborn ETer I know of and it's high time he learned the truth, whether he rejects it or not makes no difference. The seed will be planted.
IF people live in sin, they are lost, they are not saved, they are considered unbelievers, thats why. These are the people who do not accept the cross of Christ.
How can one who is lost find his own way out? He cannot. That is why Jesus came to seek and save the lost.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
