Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
To God suffering is not evil. Evil is not serving Him and spreading His word.
That's because He's not the one suffering.
Even if He "decides" to suffer, He can NEVER suffer as man does because unlike man He KNOWS He can stop it ANY time. Also, if He "decides" to suffer temporarily, it may, pain scale-wise, be a flea bite compared to a human's arm being ripped off before he cries "uncle" and stops the whole thing for all we know...kind of the way male doctors go "that can't hurt THAT much" to a woman in labor, then lie around moaning pathetically for soup and Kleenex when they sprain a toe.
Because I mean you tell me: if there is a God and it's anything even in the ballpark of what the Bible says it is, there's no way it can feel fear, pain and uncertainty the way humans can AND it can stop anything it wants, including its own self-inflicted pain. In what way is that anything like human suffering?
How cold and creepy that some superior being plays around with suffering with a clinical semi-interest, in order to spread His word. How calculated and entirely unfeeling.
The more people champion for their god, the worse He actually starts to sound.
Even if He "decides" to suffer, He can NEVER suffer as man does because unlike man He KNOWS He can stop it ANY time. Also, if He "decides" to suffer temporarily, it may, pain scale-wise, be a flea bite compared to a human's arm being ripped off before he cries "uncle" and stops the whole thing for all we know...kind of the way male doctors go "that can't hurt THAT much" to a woman in labor, then lie around moaning pathetically for soup and Kleenex when they sprain a toe.
Because I mean you tell me: if there is a God and it's anything even in the ballpark of what the Bible says it is, there's no way it can feel fear, pain and uncertainty the way humans can AND it can stop anything it wants, including its own self-inflicted pain. In what way is that anything like human suffering?
How cold and creepy that some superior being plays around with suffering with a clinical semi-interest, in order to spread His word. How calculated and entirely unfeeling.
The more people champion for their god, the worse He actually starts to sound.
"No one knows the son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the son and whoever the son will reveal Him."
In the Biblical narrative, God declares the end from the beginning and
Example of someone taking the most obscure part of a passage in order to make it mean whatever he wants.
Isaiha 46
Quote:
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
11 calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.
This makes the meaning clear. God will accomplish accomplish what he sets out to do. This is not an extra-ordinary claim. MANY human beings have declare the same things and have done what they set out to do. How then shall we think God will not do the same. But since human beings required no ability to see the future in order to do this, it is strange to think that God cannot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
This is God's universe. He is allowed to do with that which is His that which He deems best. If He does not control, where is the cut off for what He does control? Maybe you can tell us where the cut off is for what He is allowed to control and what He is not allowed, per your say-so of course.
This is indeed God's universe. He is allowed and able to make it however He chooses. And if he chooses to make it operate according to natural laws and by the free will choices of living things then that is His choice to make.
And so you are effectively asking me what are the choices He made. From what I see of life and the universe, it is clear to me He chose love and freedom over power and control, because power does not interest him like it does the power obsessed manipulators of religion. Love requires choice and so He created this universe according to rules which support a phenomenon of self-organization called life. He likewise demonstrated His choice for love and freedom over power and control by becoming a helpless human infant. But of course you don't believe that, for setting aside power and control for something like love is probably inconceivable to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
And if He is out of control of His universe, pray tell me how can He declare the end from the beginning?
How is it that Generals and CEOs can have the confidence and determination that their goals will be accomplished even though they do not control everything? It is because they have the knowledge and experience of the kind of things which can happen and thus they plan for them. God is clearly more knowledgeable and experience than they are and thus even more able to plan for all possibilities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
How can He be "working all in accord with the counsel of His will"?
Let's start by getting the context from the BIBLE itself rather than your handbook.
Ephesians 1
Quote:
9 For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory.
Just because you cannot imagine accomplishing anything without absolute control over people doesn't mean that God is similarly handicapped.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
How can He give to all, life and breath and ALL?
He created the universe with the natural laws which support all these things.
So you are allowed to put your spin on the verses I quoted but you think I am wrong to give my understanding of those verses? So you are right and I am wrong? Is that how that works?
First of all, God really does declare the end from the beginning. He doesn't just see the end from the beginning, He declares it to be so. The only way that can occur is if there is no free will. What He declares is inviolable. It cannot change due to the free-will whims of humanity. Humanity must accomplish that which He declared long ago must be. If humanity has free-will to change this direction God originally formed for them or that direction, if they are constantly changing the direction God originally meant them to take, then God declaring the end from the beginning has lost its meaning and means nothing.
Secondly, King Nebuchadnezzar thought he, by his own will and power built his mighty kingdom. Daniel told him that just isn't so, that it was God Who did it. And God violated the king by shoving him away from humanity and made him a nut job until the specified time set by God. And when the time came and God gave him his mind back this is what he declared to be so:
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
That is control . . . absolute control. It is not Him stepping back and watching the earth go about its business according to some phantom free-will choice of man.
You stated concerning the above verse: " And if he chooses to make it operate according to natural laws and by the free will choices of living things then that is His choice to make." But that is not what the verse is about. It is not about Him operating according to natural laws and free will choices. That would undermine the entire verse. None can stay His hand. His hand is in all the governments and all situations humans find themselves in. He is everywhere and all are moving in Him and He gives to all life and breath and all. He gives them ALL they get in life to teach them.
So you are allowed to put your spin on the verses I quoted but you think I am wrong to give my understanding of those verses? So you are right and I am wrong? Is that how that works?
Why thousands of sects of Christianity exists for $1000 Alex.
So you are allowed to put your spin on the verses I quoted but you think I am wrong to give my understanding of those verses? So you are right and I am wrong? Is that how that works?
But of course. You are wrong about a great many things and I will certainly check and show the context of the verses you are putting a spin on to see and show how you have spun them away from their intent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
First of all, God really does declare the end from the beginning. He doesn't just see the end from the beginning, He declares it to be so.
We looked at the context of that verse already and showed that this does not mean what you want to rewrite it to mean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
The only way that can occur is if there is no free will.
Incorrect. We have already shown you that generals and CEOs have done the same thing as it describes in the context of that passage which proves that it is possible for human beings to do this let alone God.
On the hand, when you have enslaved yourself to sin you have very little free will, if any. That is what the self-destructive habits of sin does to us. Free will is life itself and sin brings death, undermining everything of freedom and goodness within us. Thus sinful human beings become very predictable and easy to control. So it was with Pharaoh, when it says God hardened his heart. This does not mean that God controls people like puppets but only that we make ourselves easy for anybody to control like puppets when we let them push our buttons. When that is the case, it is only natural, not only for God but also for other people also to use our predictable reactions as required in order to bring about change for the better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
What He declares is inviolable. It cannot change due to the free-will whims of humanity.
Incorrect. What God declares and commands most certainly is violable, for human beings often choose sin over the will of God.
Sometimes people disappoint God as in Genesis chapter 6
Quote:
5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the ground, man and beast and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
And sometimes people surprise God in the other direction so God changes His mind.
Jonah 3:10-4:4
Quote:
10 When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God repented of the evil which he had said he would do to them; and he did not do it.
1 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was angry. 2 And he prayed to the Lord and said, “I pray thee, Lord, is not this what I said when I was yet in my country? That is why I made haste to flee to Tarshish; for I knew that thou art a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love, and repentest of evil. 3 Therefore now, O Lord, take my life from me, I beseech thee, for it is better for me to die than to live.” 4 And the Lord said, “Do you do well to be angry?”
But notice Jonah who only cares about how he looks when the prophecy doesn't come true. Religious people are often like this. They do not care about what God cares about. They only care about how they look to others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Humanity must accomplish that which He declared long ago must be. If humanity has free-will to change this direction God originally formed for them or that direction, if they are constantly changing the direction God originally meant them to take, then God declaring the end from the beginning has lost its meaning and means nothing.
No it just means that God is greater than you and you cannot imagine this. You cannot imagine anybody choosing love and freedom over power and control because that is where your values are. Thus you have remade God in your own image into a pathetic creature which you can direct and control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Secondly, King Nebuchadnezzar thought he, by his own will and power built his mighty kingdom. Daniel told him that just isn't so, that it was God Who did it. And God violated the king by shoving him away from humanity and made him a nut job until the specified time set by God. And when the time came and God gave him his mind back this is what he declared to be so:
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
All this means is that going against the will of God is futile. God's will after all is for greater life and freedom thus when we go against his will in only brings us into bondage and makes us even easier to manipulate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
That is control . . . absolute control. It is not Him stepping back and watching the earth go about its business according to some phantom free-will choice of man.
No it is not. Sometimes it sadly approaches this when we sell our freedom of will to the self-destructive habits of sin, but this is not what God wants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
You stated concerning the above verse: " And if he chooses to make it operate according to natural laws and by the free will choices of living things then that is His choice to make."
Liar. That was a response to your commentary putting spin on the passage to make it mean what you want.
There is no dispute whatsoever regarding what God CAN do. The issues of contention is over what God wants. Does He serve your lust for power and need to control people or is God more interested in love and life and freedom?
So you are allowed to put your spin on the verses I quoted but you think I am wrong to give my understanding of those verses? So you are right and I am wrong? Is that how that works?
First of all, God really does declare the end from the beginning. He doesn't just see the end from the beginning, He declares it to be so. The only way that can occur is if there is no free will. What He declares is inviolable. It cannot change due to the free-will whims of humanity. Humanity must accomplish that which He declared long ago must be. If humanity has free-will to change this direction God originally formed for them or that direction, if they are constantly changing the direction God originally meant them to take, then God declaring the end from the beginning has lost its meaning and means nothing.
Secondly, King Nebuchadnezzar thought he, by his own will and power built his mighty kingdom. Daniel told him that just isn't so, that it was God Who did it. And God violated the king by shoving him away from humanity and made him a nut job until the specified time set by God. And when the time came and God gave him his mind back this is what he declared to be so:
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
That is control . . . absolute control. It is not Him stepping back and watching the earth go about its business according to some phantom free-will choice of man.
You stated concerning the above verse: " And if he chooses to make it operate according to natural laws and by the free will choices of living things then that is His choice to make." But that is not what the verse is about. It is not about Him operating according to natural laws and free will choices. That would undermine the entire verse. None can stay His hand. His hand is in all the governments and all situations humans find themselves in. He is everywhere and all are moving in Him and He gives to all life and breath and all. He gives them ALL they get in life to teach them.
So you are allowed to put your spin on the verses I quoted but you think I am wrong to give my understanding of those verses? So you are right and I am wrong? Is that how that works?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
But of course. You are wrong about a great many things and I will certainly check and show the context of the verses you are putting a spin on to see and show how you have spun them away from their intent.
No, I am right about everything I've posted on this topic.
Quote:
Eusebius: First of all, God really does declare the end from the beginning. He doesn't just see the end from the beginning, He declares it to be so. The only way that can occur is if there is no free will. What He declares is inviolable. It cannot change due to the free-will whims of humanity. Humanity must accomplish that which He declared long ago must be. If humanity has free-will to change this direction God originally formed for them or that direction, if they are constantly changing the direction God originally meant them to take, then God declaring the end from the beginning has lost its meaning and means nothing.
Quote:
Mitch stated: We looked at the context of that verse already and showed that this does not mean what you want to rewrite it to mean.
Eusebius responded: No, but it does mean exactly what it says. God does indeed declare the end from the beginning. He therefore controlls the beginning to the end so that the end comes to pass. Otherwise words have no meaning. You can't make it not way what it says.
Quote:
Eusebius: Secondly, King Nebuchadnezzar thought he, by his own will and power built his mighty kingdom. Daniel told him that just isn't so, that it was God Who did it. And God violated the king by shoving him away from humanity and made him a nut job until the specified time set by God. And when the time came and God gave him his mind back this is what he declared to be so:
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
That is control . . . absolute control. It is not Him stepping back and watching the earth go about its business according to some phantom free-will choice of man.
Quote:
Mitch stated: Incorrect. We have already shown you that generals and CEOs have done the same thing as it describes in the context of that passage which proves that it is possible for human beings to do this let alone God.
Generals and CEOs could not do what they do unless God gave it to them to do that which God already declared must come to pass.
Quote:
EusebiusYou stated concerning the above verse: " And if he chooses to make it operate according to natural laws and by the free will choices of living things then that is His choice to make." But that is not what the verse is about. It is not about Him operating according to natural laws and free will choices. That would undermine the entire verse. None can stay His hand. His hand is in all the governments and all situations humans find themselves in. He is everywhere and all are moving in Him and He gives to all life and breath and all. He gives them ALL they get in life to teach them.
Quote:
Mitch stated: On the hand, when you have enslaved yourself to sin you have very little free will, if any. That is what the self-destructive habits of sin does to us. Free will is life itself and sin brings death, undermining everything of freedom and goodness within us. Thus sinful human beings become very predictable and easy to control. So it was with Pharaoh, when it says God hardened his heart. This does not mean that God controls people like puppets but only that we make ourselves easy for anybody to control like puppets when we let them push our buttons. When that is the case, it is only natural, not only for God but also for other people also to use our predictable reactions as required in order to bring about change for the better.
Since "all sin and are wanting of the glory of God" and since you state "when you have enslaved yourself to sin you have very little free will" therefore none of humanity have free will since all mankind are enslaved to sin. Or they have "a little free will." Suppose you tell us exactly what the percentage is of free will they have? Is it 5%? maybe 10%? maybe 20%? Please tell us since we are dying to know. Like I said, mankind has a will. The Bible calls it the will of the flesh. The Bible says the flesh is at enmity to God and cannot please God (see Romans 8). Therefore the will of mankind is not free to not be at enmity to God and is not free to please God.
You stated above "sin brings death." But Romans 5:12 states the opposite: "death entered into all mankind and for that, all sin."
You are correct that God does not control people like puppets. That is giving mankind too much credit to even call them puppets. They are vessels of clay God created for His specific use (see Romans 9).
God is everywhere. "In Him we are moving and living and are."
Solomon, the wises man wrote: Like rillets of water is the king's heart in the hand of Yahweh; Wherever He inclines, He turns it aside." Pro 21:1
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
