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This is the Christianity forum, so obviously, if you hadn't noticed, Christianity is a persuasion based on faith in God --- the unseen God who is Spirit and those who believe the testimony of Jesus Christ. Science cannot and never will fill in for spiritual matters. I get the impression you do not believe there is a spiritual realm. And so, I take it, you come here to cast doubt and dispersion on faith itself (unless it is faith in Science). I wonder, do you go into the other religious forums and do the same, or only in the Christianity forum?
Isaiah 14:
[12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
[13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
[14] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
[15] Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
The answer to your original question about how the word Lucifer became associated with Satan, is that many Christian over the years have interpreted the above verses as describing Satan's fall from heaven. In fact however, if we look at the entire passage from Isaiah, we can see that the author was specifically talking about the fall from glory of the king of Babylon.
Isaiah 14:
[4] That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
[5] The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
The idea that the verse "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer," refers to the fall of Satan from heaven is simply popular Christian make believe. It's the mythology that Christians have created for themselves above and beyond what exists in the Bible. Things which Christians have declared to be true, and which, as a result, have become commonly accepted as doctrine. The Catholic doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary is a perfect example of this.
I don't believe in the existence of God personally, this is true. But nothing I have said here denies the existence of God. All religions are equally nonsense in my opinion. But I am here discussing Christian misconceptions and the misreadings of scripture.
Isaiah 14: [12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! [13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: [14] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. [15] Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
The answer to your original question about how the word Lucifer became associated with Satan, is that many Christian over the years have interpreted the above verses as describing Satan's fall from heaven. In fact however, if we look at the entire passage from Isaiah, we can see that the author was specifically talking about the fall from glory of the king of Babylon.
Isaiah 14: [4] That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! [5] The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
The idea that the verse "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer," refers to the fall of Satan from heaven is simply popular Christian make believe. It's the mythology that Christians have created for themselves above and beyond what exists in the Bible. Things which Christians have declared to be true, and which, as a result, have become commonly accepted as doctrine. The Catholic doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary is a perfect example of this.
I don't believe in the existence of God personally, this is true. But nothing I have said here denies the existence of God. All religions are equally nonsense in my opinion. But I am here discussing Christian misconceptions and the misreadings of scripture.
I am the Pharaoh that Moses confronted, and who else is king of Babylon but me? I am King Nebuchadnezar.
I am king of Babylon, and I am the great Pharaoh. The fall of Satan was together with the fall of mankind, he is a part of the make up of a human being, and where he was once beautiful with a covering that covered, he is now fallen and all our imaginations are evil.
Am I the great Pharaoh?
The Faith of Moses
23By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after his birth, because they saw he was a beautiful child, and they were unafraid of the king’s edict. 24By faithMoses,when he wasgrown,refusedto be calledthe sonof Pharaoh’sdaughter. 25He chose to suffer oppression with God’s people rather than to experience the fleeting enjoyment of sin....You also have to refuse to be a ruler, you have to refuse to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter. YOU have to decide to choose oppression with God's people rather than to experience the fleeting joy of sin......................................THE FLEETING JOY OF YOUR SIN IS YOU CHOOSING TO BE PHARAOH INSTEAD OF GOD'S PEOPLE, IT IS YOUR SIN THAT GOD CALLS YOU OUT OF.
Moses was taken from the water and became the greatest General of all Egypt, the greatest general in Egyptian history, but he refused to be an Egyptian even though he was raised an Egyptian of great power amongst the royal family.
Everyone has to choose whether or not they shall leave Egypt, the ways of the world. Everyone has to decide whether he will be a great king of Egypt, or they have to decide to become a servant, a servant or a king and whatever anyone chooses in this life, it will be reversed in the next life where every mountain will be brought low, and every valley raised.
Pharaoh, king of Egypt is the king of all flesh, and one has to decide to leave Egypt or not, and God calls all his sons to come out of Egypt, and when they do come out of Egypt, they will then wind up in Babylon to be refined, but God will call all his sons to come out of Babylon just like Egypt, and if you don't come out of Babylon, you will receive the plagues just as it is in Egypt, if you haven't decided to join Israel as servants to God, then God will bring all the plagues of Egypt to rain down on your head.
''COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE.''
Egypt is the body, Babylon is the soul, and Israel is the spirit, and in the day of the Lord, these THREE will be as one.
Blessing to Egypt, Assyria, Israel 16In that day shall Egypt be like unto women: and it shall be afraid and fear because of the shaking of the hand of the LORD of hosts, which he shaketh over it. 17And the land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt, every one that maketh mention thereof shall be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the LORD of hosts, which he hath determined against it.
18In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.
19In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD. 20And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them. 21And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it. 22And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.
23In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: 25Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
The body and soul shall serve the spirit in that day.
Last edited by Hannibal Flavius; 07-22-2018 at 12:40 PM..
The Faith of Moses
23By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after his birth, because they saw he was a beautiful child, and they were unafraid of the king’s edict. 24By faithMoses,when he wasgrown,refusedto be calledthe sonof Pharaoh’sdaughter. 25He chose to suffer oppression with God’s people rather than to experience the fleeting enjoyment of sin....You also have to refuse to be a ruler, you have to refuse to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter. YOU have to decide to choose oppression with God's people rather than to experience the fleeting joy of sin......................................THE FLEETING JOY OF YOUR SIN IS YOU CHOOSING TO BE PHARAOH INSTEAD OF GOD'S PEOPLE, IT IS YOUR SIN THAT GOD CALLS YOU OUT OF.
Christians refuse to choose suffering oppression with God's people, they would rather stay in Egypt as Egyptians, and they choose to stay in Babylon as Babylonians. And there is Israel standing all alone for 2000 years while being oppressed by Christians who claim to be Israel but who are not Israel. If somebody is Israel, he has left the ways of the world and joined the Jews.
This right here is what Christians refuse to do, it is the same thing Christians refuse to do in Babylon, they refuse to suffer with the people of God, they refuse to stop being the son of the Pharaoh's daughter, they refuse to come out of Egypt to become one with the people of God. They refuse to come out of Babylon because their worship system is built upon the Messiah of Babylon. They all practice the holy days and traditions of Babylon while refusing to serve with God's people, and while they sit as kings and rulers in Egypt and Babylon, they actually think and claim that they are Israel. They wont come out of Egypt or Babylon, and instead of becoming one with God's people, they are the very ones who oppress God's people, God forgive them for they know not what they do.
Some of Israel wanted to go back to their paganism and so they built a golden calf and died.
You can't stay in Egypt and Babylon, and then turn around to claim that you are Israel when you are clearly an Egyptian who oppresses Israel, and neither can you claim to be Israel with a Babylonian worship system, that is ridicurus.
I am the Pharaoh that Moses confronted, and who else is king of Babylon but me? I am King Nebuchadnezar.
I am king of Babylon, and I am the great Pharaoh. The fall of Satan was together with the fall of mankind, he is a part of the make up of a human being, and where he was once beautiful with a covering that covered, he is now fallen and all our imaginations are evil.
Am I the great Pharaoh?
The Faith of Moses
23By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after his birth, because they saw he was a beautiful child, and they were unafraid of the king’s edict. 24By faithMoses,when he wasgrown,refusedto be calledthe sonof Pharaoh’sdaughter. 25He chose to suffer oppression with God’s people rather than to experience the fleeting enjoyment of sin....You also have to refuse to be a ruler, you have to refuse to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter. YOU have to decide to choose oppression with God's people rather than to experience the fleeting joy of sin......................................THE FLEETING JOY OF YOUR SIN IS YOU CHOOSING TO BE PHARAOH INSTEAD OF GOD'S PEOPLE, IT IS YOUR SIN THAT GOD CALLS YOU OUT OF.
Moses was taken from the water and became the greatest General of all Egypt, the greatest general in Egyptian history, but he refused to be an Egyptian even though he was raised an Egyptian of great power amongst the royal family.
Everyone has to choose whether or not they shall leave Egypt, the ways of the world. Everyone has to decide whether he will be a great king of Egypt, or they have to decide to become a servant, a servant or a king and whatever anyone chooses in this life, it will be reversed in the next life where every mountain will be brought low, and every valley raised.
Pharaoh, king of Egypt is the king of all flesh, and one has to decide to leave Egypt or not, and God calls all his sons to come out of Egypt, and when they do come out of Egypt, they will then wind up in Babylon to be refined, but God will call all his sons to come out of Babylon just like Egypt, and if you don't come out of Babylon, you will receive the plagues just as it is in Egypt, if you haven't decided to join Israel as servants to God, then God will bring all the plagues of Egypt to rain down on your head.
''COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE.''
Egypt is the body, Babylon is the soul, and Israel is the spirit, and in the day of the Lord, these THREE will be as one.
Blessing to Egypt, Assyria, Israel 16In that day shall Egypt be like unto women: and it shall be afraid and fear because of the shaking of the hand of the LORD of hosts, which he shaketh over it. 17And the land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt, every one that maketh mention thereof shall be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the LORD of hosts, which he hath determined against it.
18In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.
19In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD. 20And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them. 21And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it. 22And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.
23In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: 25Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
The body and soul shall serve the spirit in that day.
Does all of the above indicate that the usage of the term Lucifer in Isaiah (the name of the morning star Venus) is also a intended to be a reference to Satan?
Isaiah 14:
[12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
[13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
[14] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
[15] Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
The answer to your original question about how the word Lucifer became associated with Satan, is that many Christian over the years have interpreted the above verses as describing Satan's fall from heaven. In fact however, if we look at the entire passage from Isaiah, we can see that the author was specifically talking about the fall from glory of the king of Babylon.
Isaiah 14:
[4] That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
[5] The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
The idea that the verse "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer," refers to the fall of Satan from heaven is simply popular Christian make believe. It's the mythology that Christians have created for themselves above and beyond what exists in the Bible. Things which Christians have declared to be true, and which, as a result, have become commonly accepted as doctrine. The Catholic doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary is a perfect example of this.
I don't believe in the existence of God personally, this is true. But nothing I have said here denies the existence of God. All religions are equally nonsense in my opinion. But I am here discussing Christian misconceptions and the misreadings of scripture.
Luke 10:18 New King James Version (NKJV)
Quote:
18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
This is one reason why Hebrew is so cumbersome. The words can have primary and secondary meanings. For example, the primary meaning of the word chug (חוּג )is circle. But chug CAN have a secondary meaning, of round, depending on context. Meanwhile there are entirely different words in Hebrew that specificaly mean round (עָגוֹל עִגוּלִי כַּדוּרִי) or sphere, (כַּדוּר, תְחוּם, סְפֵירָה, חוּג, גַלגַל, הֶקֵף ).
The word used in Isaiah 40 is chug (חוּג ), whose primary meaning is circle. And that is how it has been translated. Not as something round or spherical.
Sounds like you have an opinion with no scholarly backing. A globe is a 3D circle. The lexicons and commentaries all agree chuwg means globe. And there is another word that also mean globe.
The Forgotten "Round World" Verses of Scripture.
I will start this by quoting one verse from the four old English translations of the Bible that contain them. Other verses after that I will just quote from one of those four translations to keep it simple for the reader. This post will also feature various lexicons which prove Tyndale was correct.
Psalms 89:11 (v.12 in some Bibles):
1535 Coverdale Bible,
Quote:
"The heaues are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundacio of the roude worlde and all that therin is."
1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible,
Quote:
"The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is."
1539 Great Bible,
Quote:
"The heauens are thyne, the earth also is thyne: thou hast layed the foundacyon of the rounde worlde, and all that therin is."
1568 Bishop's Bible,
Quote:
"The heauens are thine, the earth also is thine: thou hast layde the foundation of the rounde worlde, and of all the plentie that is therin."
Psalm 18:15,
Quote:
1539 Great Bible: "The sprynges of waters were sene, & the foundacions of the round worlde were discouered at thy chydinge, O Lorde, at the blastynge of the breth of thy displeasure."
Proverbs 8:31,
Quote:
1568 Bishop's Bible: "As for the rounde compasse of this worlde I make it ioyfull: for my delite is to be among the chyldren of men."
Hebrew Lexicons:
The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible. H8398
Quote:
"8398. têbêl, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—world [35x] habitable part, [1x].
The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."
"This noun is used in three basic situations. First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth, including the atmosphere or heavens (cf. Ps.89:12; II Sam 22:16; et al.). têbêl is often in parallelism or apposition with 'eres (I Sam 2:8; Isa.26:9; 34:1; et al.) when 'eres is used in its broadest sense of "the world." The "world" was created by God, not false gods (Jer.10:12; Ps.93:1) and it belongs solely to him (Ps.24:1). God's eternality is illustrated by his existence before the creation of "world" (Ps.90:2) and his wisdom (perhaps a personification of Christ) was present prior to the world's creation (Prov. 8:26, 31). Creation itself gives a "worldwide" witness to God's glory (Ps.19:4 [H 5]) which should result in Yahweh's praise (Ps.98:2). Yahweh will judge this "world," making it empty (Isa.24:4), though in the millennium God will cause Israel to blossom and fill the whole world with her fruit (Isa.27:6).
Second, têbêl is sometime limited to "countries" or "the inhabitable world." This meaning is more closely related to the root meaning. It refers to the world where crops are raised. This is observed in the judgment message against the king of Babylon (not Satan) for violently shaking the "world" or "inhabitable world" (Isa.13:11; 14:17). Lightning is said to enlighten the "world"---undoubtedly referring to a limited land area (Ps.77:18 [H 19]; 97:4).
Third, têbêl may also refer to the inhabitants living upon the whole earth. This is demonstrated by the parallelism of têbêl with I' umim (Ps.9:8 [H 9]) and 'ammim (Ps.96:13; 98:9). The context of these references is Yahweh's judgment upon the world's inhabitants---a judgment both executed in righteousness and instructive of Yahweh's righteousness (Isa.26:9; 34:1).
In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed. Everything belongs to Yahweh as his creation (Ps.50:12). Yahweh alone controls this world (Job 34:13; Nah 1:5) and his power is over all the earth which always responds to his presence (Job 37:12; Ps.97:4)".
New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Volume 4:
Quote:
"9315. têbêl תֵּבֵל Nom. fem., world (#9315).
OT Found 36x exclusively in poetic texts, the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity. It sometimes occurs in parallelism with 'eres (Jer.10:12; Lam.4:12). Twice it is used together with 'eres, either to express "the whole earth" (Job 37:12), or perhaps in the sense of the inhabited earth (Prov.8:31). It is used frequently in contexts that associate it with Yahweh's creative act and that, as a result, express the stability or durability of the earth (1 Sam.2:8; Ps.89:11 [12]; 93:1; 96:10). It is used when the whole population of the world is referred to (Ps.24:1; 33:8; 98:7; Isa. 18:3; 26:9; Nah.1:5). Isaiah uses têbêl more than any other prophet, mostly in the context of universal judgment (Isaiah 13:11; 24:4; 34:1; cf. Ps.96:13; 98:9).
Land, earth: --> damd (ground, piece of land, soil, realm of the earth, #141); --> 'eres (earth, land, #824); --> têbêl (world, #9315)."
The meaning is not lost and the lexicons prove this point for us. Even in the KJV it is speaking about the complete fullness of the world God created. But Tyndale, being the brilliant scholar he was, knew how important "round world" would be to English speaking readers, as the text does imply the whole of the earth, and its round shape (globe).
A Breakdown of תֵּבֵל têbêl:
Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"
Gesenius': ",the habitable globe,"
TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth"--AND-- "In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."
New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."
Does all of the above indicate that the usage of the term Lucifer in Isaiah (the name of the morning star Venus) is also a intended to be a reference to Satan?
What was the most beautiful creature?
NOT,'' Who IS the most beautiful creature?''
Let's take a look at the most beautiful creature.
Revelation ~ A covering of brilliant precious stones
“Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.
A Lament over the King ~ A covering of brilliant precious stones, the covering angel himself.
…13You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every kind of precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald. Your mountings and settings were crafted in gold, prepared on the day of your creation. 14Youwere an anointed as a covering cherub,for I had ordained you.You wereon the holymountainof God;you walkedamongthe fierystones. 15From the day you were created you were blameless in your ways until wickedness was found in you.…
The covering Cherub is within all people, but when pride came, that covering fell away, and it was the most beautiful covering of precious stones, but where O where did it go? When that covering fell, they became naked, and they chose a new covering from their own imagination, but God showed them the one way they could be covered.
The 3 in the garden is YOU, it is mankind that began to die when we lost a spiritual covering, but this covering comes back in Revelation where you see the precious stones, and instead of a Satan, there is again, a most beautiful creature.
Jesus looked at his disciples and said,'' You speak from the spirit of your father Satan.''
They spoke from the spirit of their father because they are his sons, a brood of vipers. We had to look upon the snake as Jesus came in the flesh as all men came, in the weakness of a fallen covering that no longer had precious stones.
Last edited by Hannibal Flavius; 07-22-2018 at 02:22 PM..
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