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The thing most of the ranters miss on this forum is that God doesn't condemn anyone to hell. He freely offers everyone forgiveness, love, grace, mercy and Spiritual life. But, in order for these things to truly exist, the free-will to reject God and refuse His offer in Jesus Christ must also exist!
This nonsense of characterizing the ways and truths of Almighty God as evil or wrong, because He doesn't do things the way these arrogant 'haters' think he should ... leaves them without a defense.
People, not God, choose the death-wages of sin, over the love of God in Jesus Christ. The same was true in the Garden of Eden.
Say what you will ... or accept Scripture. What is the source of information those of you who hate and revile Scripture, depend upon?
Extremely absurd claims deserve strong rebuttals, IMO. What most Christians do not get is just how sadistic ET is. It is absurd no matter who implements it.
God is absolute and perfect righteousness ... His standard is absolute perfection. God created man in an unfallen state. But sin resulted in a fall from that unfallen state
Wonderful. Mike, could we examine the ideas you've attempted to communicate to see how they actually measure up as ideas? You're trying to paint a picture of consistency and to reason out how and why it is as it is in truth. So I'm sure you would be open to examining the truthfulness of the ideas.
First, above I see that you state as fact that God's standard is absolute perfection. If that is true, God could not have created an imperfect man. So is His standard absolute perfection or not? You said it is and so your idea of God is not valid when you also say man is not and was not perfect. And if man was, indeed, perfect, then man could not have been subject to sinning, a flaw, a "fall", or any imperfection.
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Despite the fact that God loved Adam, He had no choice but to condemn Adam
You say God had no choice, which is to say that Adam took away God's choice option and forced God to act in a way He didn't "want" to act. So who was really the more powerful? Who was really in control? If God was in control and if He was all-powerful and not on an equal footing with mere men, He would not "have no choice". A weak God is not an all-powerful, all-knowing God. You have a contradiction here to work out.
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God's ... justice is the function of His integrity.
A perfect Creator cannot create imperfectly. To do so would mean a lapse from perfection to inject something He otherwise does not have: imperfection. Hence a perfect Creator would have no need for justice because only imperfection can produce injustice and for Him, there is only perfection..
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What divine righteousness demands, divine justice must execute. Since sin is a violation of God's righteousness, divine justice was required to condemn Adam and all of mankind
For a perfect Being, righteousness is perfection. Again, justice is unnecessary unless imperfection has been introduced somehow and sin is impossible.
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God's solution was for He Himself to pay the penalty for sin
You're saying the perfect God needed to fix an imperfection He created and had "painted Himself into a corner" in which He had to pay himself a penalty for His imperfection.
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This put man into a savable state so that anyone who simply places His faith in the finished redemptive work of Christ on the cross is credited with the perfect righteousness of Christ and given eternal life.
Yes and the rest is also the standard teaching found today in most Christian churches and books.
Mike, it is true that I paraphrased you and reworded what you said, and I did it to bring out the real meaning of what you said. Will you be the first believer in my 60 years of experience who finally actually addresses and answers to my comments in your own words without changing the subject and/or avoiding looking at the reality entirely? Your explanation is canned and deeply flawed. Your conclusions that I left behind uncopied and unsaid at the end are also canned but aren't even found in the Bible.
Wonderful. Mike, could we examine the ideas you've attempted to communicate to see how they actually measure up as ideas? You're trying to paint a picture of consistency and to reason out how and why it is as it is in truth. So I'm sure you would be open to examining the truthfulness of the ideas.
First, above I see that you state as fact that God's standard is absolute perfection. If that is true, God could not have created an imperfect man. So is His standard absolute perfection or not? You said it is and so your idea of God is not valid when you also say man is not and was not perfect. And if man was, indeed, perfect, then man could not have been subject to sinning, a flaw, a "fall", or any imperfection.
You say God had no choice, which is to say that Adam took away God's choice option and forced God to act in a way He didn't "want" to act. So who was really the more powerful? Who was really in control? If God was in control and if He was all-powerful and not on an equal footing with mere men, He would not "have no choice". A weak God is not an all-powerful, all-knowing God. You have a contradiction here to work out.
A perfect Creator cannot create imperfectly. To do so would mean a lapse from perfection to inject something He otherwise does not have: imperfection. Hence a perfect Creator would have no need for justice because only imperfection can produce injustice and for Him, there is only perfection..
For a perfect Being, righteousness is perfection. Again, justice is unnecessary unless imperfection has been introduced somehow and sin is impossible.
You're saying the perfect God needed to fix an imperfection He created and had "painted Himself into a corner" in which He had to pay himself a penalty for His imperfection.
Yes and the rest is also the standard teaching found today in most Christian churches and books.
Mike, it is true that I paraphrased you and reworded what you said, and I did it to bring out the real meaning of what you said. Will you be the first believer in my 60 years of experience who finally actually addresses and answers to my comments in your own words without changing the subject and/or avoiding looking at the reality entirely? Your explanation is canned and deeply flawed. Your conclusions that I left behind uncopied and unsaid at the end are also canned but aren't even found in the Bible.
It all comes down to "is God perfect or not?"
Kode, your arguments are sound logically, and I know the other stuff doesn't make a bit of sense. The problem is you're talking to a brick wall. I judge from your points you haven't been around here long enough to ascertain that. I have. Good luck.
Wonderful. Mike, could we examine the ideas you've attempted to communicate to see how they actually measure up as ideas? You're trying to paint a picture of consistency and to reason out how and why it is as it is in truth. So I'm sure you would be open to examining the truthfulness of the ideas.
First, above I see that you state as fact that God's standard is absolute perfection. If that is true, God could not have created an imperfect man. So is His standard absolute perfection or not? You said it is and so your idea of God is not valid when you also say man is not and was not perfect. And if man was, indeed, perfect, then man could not have been subject to sinning, a flaw, a "fall", or any imperfection.
You say God had no choice, which is to say that Adam took away God's choice option and forced God to act in a way He didn't "want" to act. So who was really the more powerful? Who was really in control? If God was in control and if He was all-powerful and not on an equal footing with mere men, He would not "have no choice". A weak God is not an all-powerful, all-knowing God. You have a contradiction here to work out.
A perfect Creator cannot create imperfectly. To do so would mean a lapse from perfection to inject something He otherwise does not have: imperfection. Hence a perfect Creator would have no need for justice because only imperfection can produce injustice and for Him, there is only perfection..
For a perfect Being, righteousness is perfection. Again, justice is unnecessary unless imperfection has been introduced somehow and sin is impossible.
You're saying the perfect God needed to fix an imperfection He created and had "painted Himself into a corner" in which He had to pay himself a penalty for His imperfection.
Yes and the rest is also the standard teaching found today in most Christian churches and books.
Mike, it is true that I paraphrased you and reworded what you said, and I did it to bring out the real meaning of what you said. Will you be the first believer in my 60 years of experience who finally actually addresses and answers to my comments in your own words without changing the subject and/or avoiding looking at the reality entirely? Your explanation is canned and deeply flawed. Your conclusions that I left behind uncopied and unsaid at the end are also canned but aren't even found in the Bible.
It all comes down to "is God perfect or not?"
God IS perfect, and He did create man in an unfallen state of perfection. In a state that was acceptable to God. God told Adam that if he ate the fruit of the tree of good and evil he would die that day. It was the act of disobedience that caused the fall. Adam died spiritually which means that his relationship with God was broken the very moment he disobeyed God.
God is all powerful, but He is also absolutely righteous, as well as possessing a number of other attributes, all of which must stay in balance. He cannot act contrary to His own nature and cannot compromise who and what He is. Therefore, when Adam sinned, God had to deal with it in accordance with the demands of His righteousness. This meant that He had to impose the penalty of spiritual death on Adam. He had no choice because again, He could not compromise His righteousness.
And yes, Adam, though having been created perfect was capable of sinning because sin originates from the volition. And God created man with volition. The command that God gave Adam concerning not eating from the tree of good and evil was to give Adam's volition something with which to work. Adam had to be given a chance to disobey God. He had to be given a choice.
Adam's disobedience didn't catch God by surprise, but was something God knew would occur before He ever created him. And God already knew how He would handle the situation and provide the solution to the sin problem.
In Ezekiel 28, both the human king of Tyre, and Satan, the power behind the throne are addressed. Ezekiel 28:1-10 is directed at the human king Ethbaal III who reined from c. 590 B.C. to c. 573 B.C., while Ezekiel 28:11 and following address Satan who again was the power behind the throne. Things are said of him which could not have been said about Ethbaal III. In the human race, only Adam had been created perfect and blameless in his ways until unrighteousness was found in him. Ethbaal III was never the anointed cherub who covers, and was never on the mountain of God. Satan, the title by which he is known since his fall before the creation of man had been created perfect and blameless in his ways until unrighteousness was found in him. Satan's moral fall came about when he sinned against God.
Just as Satan had been created perfect and blameless, but who then sinned against God, so also was the case with Adam.
God is perfect and His way is perfect (Psalm 18:30). And His wrath or judgment against sin and all unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) is a clear teaching found throughout the Bible.
The Bible teaches that God is perfect, that man was created perfect and blameless, without sin, but that Adam chose to disobey God which caused the fall of the human race, and that God had a plan to remedy the sin problem. It is not though philosophical speculation, but through what God has revealed in His written word that these things are found to be true.
Last edited by Michael Way; 08-24-2016 at 12:43 AM..
The next time a fundamentalist blowhard throws that argument your way simply neutralize it with this:
"What does it mean to commit a crime against someone? Does the essence of a crime not lie in harm? Not all harm done to a person rises to the standard of a crime, but it cannot be said that you have committed a crime against someone if they have not been harmed in any way. But God, by his nature, can never be harmed. According to the monotheistic religions, God is omniscient, omnipotent, and perfect; he lacks nothing, he needs nothing, and certainly he cannot be injured or diminished in any way by anything a human being could ever do. Therefore, it is impossible to commit any crime against him at all, much less an infinite one. We may harm ourselves, or other people, but we can never harm God, and it defies justice to pay back an act that causes zero harm with an act that causes infinite harm."
The thing most of the ranters miss on this forum is that God doesn't condemn anyone to hell. He freely offers everyone forgiveness, love, grace, mercy and Spiritual life. But, in order for these things to truly exist, the free-will to reject God and refuse His offer in Jesus Christ must also exist!
This nonsense of characterizing the ways and truths of Almighty God as evil or wrong, because He doesn't do things the way these arrogant 'haters' think he should ... leaves them without a defense.
People, not God, choose the death-wages of sin, over the love of God in Jesus Christ. The same was true in the Garden of Eden.
Say what you will ... or accept Scripture. What is the source of information those of you who hate and revile Scripture, depend upon?
Hell cannot exist.
Eternal torment isn't loving, just, nor is it merciful.
James 2:13
"because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment."
The 1st scripture I think of when I arise and the last one I think of before retiring...Phil. 4:8. Whatever...God Bless anyone reading these words and have a glorious day in your heart, mind and soul.
If you see selfishness evil in the world then that is the works of the evil spirit of the world which manipulates man to do , these evil spirits which are enemies to the living God , and there is No mercy for them from God ....... So if you believe God is merciful then you would be right for people who are alive
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