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Many would say, "What is the difference." Others would say, "Truth is the truth and is not something that might come close to the truth."
The Churches of Christendom are identified with the veneration of the cross. The Churches of Christendom also use other pagan signs, omens and rituals, and try to explain them off as a Christian truth, they can't of course, as the pagan connection is so obvious. To cover this obviousness, the clergy say that tradition should be accepted above the scriptures.
What is your opinion on the use of the cross or crucification for the torture of God's Only begotten son, Jesus Christ?
Naturally, I have a strong concept of this question, however, it is worth discussing here, don't you think?
I've witnessed devout old women, who have known deprivation and persecution, pray at the foot of the Cross asking God for peace. Or a job. Or health for their sick child. I've witnessed poor people who have spent the day in the hot sun picking crops pray before the Cross after a day in the fields. It gives them comfort. And hope. It's a moving sight. One can imagine Christ looking down on them with compassion and love.
I've no respect for religions that try to denigrate their belief. Or the adherents who try and tell people of other faiths they are doing it wrong.
For what it's worth, several early writings show that Romans used both stakes and crosses to crucify criminals, with some writings indicating that Jesus was crucified on a cross rather than a stake.
1.) Justin Martyr (A.D. 100-165) in writing how the Passover lamb is sacrificed as a symbol of the suffering of Christ states that the lamb is dressed up in the form of the cross which Jesus would undergo, with one spit being vertical and the other one horizontal across the back.
CHAPTER XL -- HE RETURNS TO THE MOSAIC LAWS, AND PROVES THAT THEY WERE FIGURES OF THE THINGS WHICH PERTAIN TO CHRIST.
God does not permit the lamb of the passover to be sacrificed in any other place than where His name was named; knowing that the days will come, after the suffering of Christ, when even the place in Jerusalem shall be given over to your enemies, and all the offerings, in short, shall cease; and that lamb which was commanded to be wholly roasted was a symbol of the suffering of the cross which Christ would undergo. For the lamb, which is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross. For one spit is transfixed right through from the lower parts up to the head, and one across the back, to which are attached the legs of the lamb.
Concerning Justin Martyr's claim that the Paschal lamb was offered in the form of a cross, refer to the following article. - The Crucifixion of the Paschal Lamb
2.) Irenaeus (c. A.D. 120/140 - c. A.D. 200-203) in speaking of the number five and that it does not agree with the arguments of the Gnostics describes the cross as having five extremities which at least doesn't describe a stake.
Against Heresies 2.24.4
Chapter XXIV.-Folly of the Arguments Derived by the Heretics from Numbers, Letters, and Syllables.
The very form of the cross, too, has five extremities, two in length, two in breadth, and one in the middle, on which [last] the person rests who is fixed by the nails.
4.) Marcus Minucius Felix (died c. A.D.250) indicates that Jesus was crucified on a cross. He writes that the sign of the cross can be seen in a ship carried along by its sails. The Mast is the vertical pole on which the sail is raised, and the Boom is the horizontal pole. On an ancient Roman sailing ship it looks like a cross.
The Octavius of Minucius Felix.
CHAP. XXIX.--ARGUMENT: NOR IS IT MORE TRUE THAT A MAN FASTENED TO A CROSS ON ACCOUNT OF HIS CRIMES IS WORSHIPPED BY CHRISTIANS, FOR THEY BELIEVE NOT ONLY THAT HE WAS INNOCENT, BUT WITH REASON THAT HE WAS GOD. BUT, ON THE OTHER HAND, THE HEATHENS INVOKE THE DIVINE POWERS OF KINGS RAISED INTO GODS BY THEMSELVES; THEY PRAY TO IMAGES, AND BESEECH THEIR GENII.
"These, and such as these infamous things, we are not at liberty even to hear; it is even disgraceful with any more words to defend ourselves from such charges. For you pretend that those things are done by chaste and modest persons, which we should not believe to be done at all, unless you proved that they were true concerning yourselves. For in that you attribute to our religion the worship of a criminal and his cross, you wander far from the neighbourhood of the truth, in thinking either that a criminal deserved, or that an earthly being was able, to be believed God. Miserable indeed is that man whose whole hope is dependent on mortal man, for all his help is put an end to with the extinction of the man. The Egyptians certainly choose out a man for themselves whom they may worship; him alone they propitiate; him they consult about all things; to him they slaughter victims; and he who to others is a god, to himself is certainly a man whether he will or no, for he does not deceive his own consciousness, if he deceives that of others. "Moreover, a false flattery disgracefully caresses princes and kings, not as great and chosen men, as is just, but as gods; whereas honour is more truly rendered to an illustrious man, and love is more pleasantly given to a very good man. Thus they invoke their deity, they supplicate their images, they implore their Genius, that is, their demon; and it is safer to swear falsely by the genius of Jupiter than by that of a king. Crosses, moreover, we neither worship nor wish for. You, indeed, who consecrate gods of wood, adore wooden crosses perhaps as parts of your gods. For your very standards, as well as your banners; and flags of your camp, what else are they but crosses glided and adorned? Your victorious trophies not only imitate the appearance of a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it. We assuredly see the sign of a cross, naturally, in the ship when it is carried along with swelling sails, when it glides forward with expanded oars; and when the military yoke is lifted up, it is the sign of a cross; and when a man adores God with a pure mind, with handsoutstretched. Thus the sign of the cross either is sustained by a natural reason, or your own religion is formed with respect to it.
5.) In the Acts of Peter (C. A.D. 150-200 ), Jesus is said to have been crucified on a cross.
The Acts of Peter Chapter XXXVIII
For it is right to mount upon the cross of Christ, who is the word stretched out, the one and only, of whom the spirit saith: For what else is Christ, but the word, the sound of God? So that the word is the upright beam whereon I am crucified. And the sound is that which crosseth it, the nature of man. And the nail which holdeth the cross-tree unto the upright in the midst thereof is the conversion and repentance of man.
Whether Jesus was crucified on a cross or a stake, He was crucified on our behalf, bearing our sins in His own body, paying the penalty for those sins as our substitute.
Whether Jesus was crucified on a cross or a stake, He was crucified on our behalf, and bore our sins in His own body paying the penalty as our substitute.
Note: The wages for sin is death, not eternal torment in some place called Hell.
Whether Jesus was crucified on a cross or a stake, He was crucified on our behalf, bearing our sins in His own body, paying the penalty for those sins as our substitute.
Just being a bit technical here, but if it wasn't a cross, then it wasn't a crucifixion, right?
I've witnessed devout old women, who have known deprivation and persecution, pray at the foot of the Cross asking God for peace. Or a job. Or health for their sick child. I've witnessed poor people who have spent the day in the hot sun picking crops pray before the Cross after a day in the fields. It gives them comfort. And hope. It's a moving sight. One can imagine Christ looking down on them with compassion and love.
I've no respect for religions that try to denigrate their belief. Or the adherents who try and tell people of other faiths they are doing it wrong.
Bad, Bad Jesus, fancy telling the Jews they no longer were God's people. Criticizing the Philistines and Scribes, telling everyone that he, Jesus, was not The God, but his Father in the heavens was the Creator. I can imagine the indignation you would have with Jesus, the Disciples and the Apostles that spread his word of Truth. Let you indignation blind you.
I can imagine the indignation you would have with Jesus, the Disciples and the Apostles that spread his word of Truth. Let you indignation blind you.
If you came to my door recruiting for the JW's would you say that? Or do you save that attitude for the internet? I can't imagine many people are anxious to convert once they hear you twist their beliefs.
You made a post and I responded. That's what happens on public internet boards. Your response is to make up a lot of nonsense about my indignation and Jesus and the Disciples. What's up with that?
Last edited by DewDropInn; 09-01-2016 at 04:37 PM..
Whether Jesus was crucified on a cross or a stake, He was crucified on our behalf, bearing our sins in His own body, paying the penalty for those sins as our substitute.
Just being a bit technical here, but if it wasn't a cross, then it wasn't a crucifixion, right?
Jewelry makers will have to revise their designs.
No, there should be no idol for a cross or anything else. The thought is: Accept one error and you then open yourself to accept all errors.
There is no word for crucifix in the Bible translations, doesn't that mean anything to you?
It is not that the cross is not a stake or a tree it is the fact that the cross has pagan influences, and can be seen in ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics. It is presented in the form of the sign for fertility, and does not fit in with the Ransom Sacrifice of Jesus. Using a simple thing like the cross of pagan influence is just another attempt of Satan's to denigrate Jehovah and his faithful Son.
Do you want to know the truth or just little bits of it to make a good story?
No, there should be no idol for a cross or anything else. The thought is: Accept one error and you then open yourself to accept all errors.
There is no word for crucifix in the Bible translations, doesn't that mean anything to you?
It is not that the cross is not a stake or a tree it is the fact that the cross has pagan influences, and can be seen in ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics. It is presented in the form of the sign for fertility, and does not fit in with the Ransom Sacrifice of Jesus. Using a simple thing like the cross of pagan influence is just another attempt of Satan's to denigrate Jehovah and his faithful Son.
Do you want to know the truth or just little bits of it to make a good story?
I'm a Pagan.
You are reading words written by a Pagan --- a loud n' proud Pagan!
No, there should be no idol for a cross or anything else. The thought is: Accept one error and you then open yourself to accept all errors.
There is no word for crucifix in the Bible translations, doesn't that mean anything to you?
It is not that the cross is not a stake or a tree it is the fact that the cross has pagan influences, and can be seen in ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics. It is presented in the form of the sign for fertility, and does not fit in with the Ransom Sacrifice of Jesus. Using a simple thing like the cross of pagan influence is just another attempt of Satan's to denigrate Jehovah and his faithful Son.
Do you want to know the truth or just little bits of it to make a good story?
Australian Royal Commission. I see you are in Australia so I am assuming you have at least heard about it. I think what was discovered during that is way more disturbing than if someone is using a phallic pagan symbol in worship. The JW logo is looking a bit idolatrous. What do you think would soil a white robe more?
EDIT:
If you haven't been keeping up on it you can throw this into your search engine and take your pick of sources.
australian royal commission jehovah's witnesses findings
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