Universal Reconciliation Foundational Verses: What do they really mean? (paradise, Eden, crucified)

[Cyber Munchkin]

Originally Posted by cg81

Thanks for your posts, Birdy.

We've debated this subject for awhile now, and I've come to the conclusion that not only do we not believe in the same "Jesus" (see Another Jesus ), we probably don't believe in the same "God" either.. and so how can we come to agreement? It's not possible.

I have learned alot in the last few days while debating this subject.. I have seen that even tho untruth may be deceptive at first, upon closer scrutiny it can never stand up to God's Word. It's scary to see how contradictions and lies are swallowed up, how scripture that is clearly out-of-context is used blindly over and over again, in apparent deception... and yet this also teaches me that the Truth will stand on it's own. There can only be one Truth that fits the whole Bible.

I have been amazed at the clarity and simplicity of God's Word, and how the Truth never contradicts itself. I have been awed at the Holy Spirit's prompting with scriptures.. even tho many times I haven't been as fervent a Bible scholar as I should have been. When the Truth is revealed, there is no need to pick out certain verses, use them out of context, and ignore or disqualify others. It all fits together. It's beautiful.

The Truth will truly set us free. I wish this for each one!

Philemon 1:4-7
I thank my God, making mention of you always in my prayers, hearing of your love and faith which you have toward the Lord Jesus and toward all the saints, that the sharing of your faith may become effective by the knowledgment of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus. For we have great joy and consolation in your love, because the hearts of the saints have been refreshed by you, brother.
Blessings

[Birdy_56]

Originally Posted by cg81

I have been amazed at the clarity and simplicity of God's Word, and how the Truth never contradicts itself.

It is to the man who is trying to live, to the man who is obedient to the word of the Master, that the word of the Master unfolds itself. When we understand the outside of things, we think we have them: the Lord puts his things in subdefined, suggestive shapes, yielding no satisfactory meaning to the mere intellect, but unfolding themselves to the conscience and heart, to the man himself, in the process of life-effort. According as the new creation, that of reality, advances in him, the man becomes able to understand the words, the symbols, the parables of the Lord. For life, that is, action, is alone the human condition into which the light of the Living can penetrate; life alone can assimilate life, can change food into growth. See how the disciples here fooled themselves!

See how the Lord calls them to their senses. He does not tell them in so many words where they are wrong; he attacks instead the cause in themselves which led to their mistake—a matter always of infinitely more consequence than any mistake itself: the one is a live mistake, an untruth in the soul, the other a mere dead blunder born of it. The word—connection therefore between their blunder and our Lord’s exhortation, is not to be found; the logic of what the Lord said, is not on the surface. Often he speaks not to the words but to the thought; here he speaks not even to the thought, but to the whole mode of thinking, to the thought—matrix, the inward condition of the men.

Continued HERE

[ShanaBrown]

Think of it this way...the farthest the finest pitcher can throw a ball is exceeded abundantly beyond, beyond by the Last Adam.

Amen, thanks for sharing Birdy. It is wonderful to realize that the power of God is greater than sin, evil, the power of satan, and what is believed to be the free will of man. Nothing is too hard for God, nothing too difficult, too incorrigible that He is unable to change, too blind that the True Light is unable to enlighten.

The promise is, Jesus has been made heir of all. God bless

[Birdy_56]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

Amen, thanks for sharing Birdy. It is wonderful to realize that the power of God is greater than sin, evil, the power of satan, and what is believed to be the free will of man. Nothing is too hard for God, nothing too difficult, too incorrigible that He is unable to change, too blind that the True Light is unable to enlighten.

The promise is, Jesus has been made heir of all. God bless

"Through the Son God made the whole universe, and to the Son He has ordained all creation shall ultimately belong."

Amen and amen Shana! We cannot help but speak that which we have seen with our own eyes and heard with our own ears! The wonder of His great plan of redemption still holds for me a great sense of mystery, and abounding love and grace and glory that reaches deep into my being. This we know: our God changes not, His mercies they fail not. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and nothing, but nothing, is too hard for Him!

We must all die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, but the Lord does not take away life, instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored.

Literally: For the banished to not be banished.

Devises=

To invent a plan/ system/ objective usually cleverly or imaginatively.

To arrange by systematic planning and effort.

To form, plan, arrange in the mind by design.

To invent with intelligence & imagination.


"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has crowned us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ; even as, in His love, He chose us as His own in Christ before the creation of the world, that we might be holy and without blemish in His presence. For He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ--such being His gracious will and pleasure--to the praise of the splendour of His grace with which He has enriched us in the beloved One. It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you... having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will.."

[ShanaBrown]

We've debated this subject for awhile now, and I've come to the conclusion that not only do we not believe in the same "Jesus" (see Another Jesus ), we probably don't believe in the same "God" either.. and so how can we come to agreement? It's not possible.

I have learned alot in the last few days while debating this subject.. I have seen that even tho untruth may be deceptive at first, upon closer scrutiny it can never stand up to God's Word. It's scary to see how contradictions and lies are swallowed up, how scripture that is clearly out-of-context is used blindly over and over again, in apparent deception... and yet this also teaches me that the Truth will stand on it's own. There can only be one Truth that fits the whole Bible.

Cg81, it may be your view that there are contradictions and deceptions, but other Christians do not see that this is the case and believe that what is presented is truth and that it fits the whole Bible. Christians see things differently on this subject, but I believe that those who believe in the eventual restoration of all, eternal hell, and annihilation may worship the same God but see Him in different ways, according to what we understand about the nature of God, about what we understand to be presented in His word. Christians have disagreed on this down through time and those who believed in the eventual restoration of all to God were not considered to be worshippers of another God or heretics in the days of the early church.

I have been amazed at the clarity and simplicity of God's Word, and how the Truth never contradicts itself. I have been awed at the Holy Spirit's prompting with scriptures.. even tho many times I haven't been as fervent a Bible scholar as I should have been. When the Truth is revealed, there is no need to pick out certain verses, use them out of context, and ignore or disqualify others. It all fits together. It's beautiful.

I agree that the Truth never contradicts itself and I have not seen any verses presented from the perspective of Christian Universalism which have been taken out of context. You have presented your understanding/interpretation of certain verses and how you believe they have been taken out of context, but many Christian do not agree with you.

The Truth will truly set us free. I wish this for each one!

Amen, me too! God bless.

[Birdy_56]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

Cg81, it may be your view that there are contradictions and deceptions, but other Christians do not see that this is the case and believe that what is presented is truth and that it fits the whole Bible. Christians see things differently on this subject, but I believe that those who believe in the eventual restoration of all, eternal hell, and annihilation may worship the same God but see Him in different ways, according to what we understand about the nature of God, about what we understand to be presented in His word. Christians have disagreed on this down through time and those who believed in the eventual restoration of all to God were not considered to be worshippers of another God or heretics in the days of the early church.

It would appear that CG is unaware of the fact that in the first five or six centuries of the Church there were six theological schools (of which four were believers in the restitution of all things), the other two accepting conditional immortality & and one endless punishment. (Carthage or Rome)

But let us take a look at the present shall we?

Dr. Arthur Tappan Pierson -The Bible & Spiritual Life-

"This view (Restitution of All) is so clearly scriptural that the only surprise is that it has not been more definitely and widely held. It adds immeasurably, both to the glory of Christ as the coming King, and the Father as the former and framer of the ages. It is the period typified by the eighth day of the Mosaic Code: the perfect glory of Christ, reserved for 'the morrow after.' The millennial 'Sabbath.' And while the millenial period is limited to a thousand years, there are no definite limits to this final age of glory."

-Dr. P. B. Fitzwater- (Professor of Systematic Theology- Moody Bible Institute) Christian Theology P. 407

"Then there is the Universalist who declares that the redemption provided by Christ avails for the salvation of all men. This means that what God has done for the salvation of sinful men accrues to the benefit of all men. This view of Universalism is quite widespread. Many leaders in the evangelical church hold to this view, even though they have not dared to declare it."

From the Lutheran ELCA website......

The Christian hope for salvation, whether for the believing few or the unbelieving many, is grounded in the person and meaning of Christ alone, not in the potential of the world's religions to save, nor in the moral seriousness of humanists and people of good will, not even in the good works of pious Christians and church people. ... There is a universalist thrust in the New Testament, particularly in Paul's theology. How else can we read passages such as 'for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ' (1 Cor 15:22)?" (See also Colossians 1:15-20, Ephesians 1:9-10, 1 Corinthians 15:28.) -Carl Braaten-

The universal scope of salvation in Christ

ELCA Lutherans will say with Braaten,

Salvation in the New Testament is what God has done to death in the resurrection of Jesus. Salvation is what God has in store for you and me and the whole world in spite of death, solely on account of the living risen Christ.

... The universal scope of salvation in Christ includes the destiny of our bodies together with the whole earth and the whole of creation. This cosmic hope is based on the promise of eternal life sealed by the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. Through raising Jesus from the dead, God put death to death, overcoming the deadliest enemy of life at loose in the world. This hope for the final salvation of humanity and the eternal universal restitution of all things in heaven and on earth ... is drawn from the unlimited promise of the Gospel and the magnitude of God's grace made known to the world through Christ.

HERE

A Survey of Bible Doctrine" by Charles Ryrie, Professor of Systematic Theology: Dallas Theological Seminary.

In the section on future things, he dismisses the Restitution of all things (which he refers to as "Classic Universalism" as unbiblical).

However

In his K.J.V. Ryrie Study Bible, which was published a few years after his doctrine book, he says a very interesting thing in his footnote on Colossians 1:20...

Col 1:20 .... to reconcile all things unto himself. Christ is the remedy for alienation from God, and eventually all things will be changed and brought into a unity in Him, even though this will involve judgment.

[Birdy_56]

Let's hear from Schaff and Herzog shall we?

Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia Of Religious Knowledge

The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol XIII: Index - TOC

Universalism: The Majority Belief Of The Early Church

New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. XII: Trench - Zwingli | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Under the instruction of these great teachers many other theologians believed in universal salvation; and indeed the whole Eastern Church until after 500 A.D. were inclined to it.

In the West this doctrine had fewer adherents and was never accepted by the Church at large. In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria , Antioch, Cæsarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is unknown. Doederlein says that "In proportion as any man was eminent in learning in Christian antiquity, the more did he cherish and defend the hope of the termination of future torments." In the dark ages Universalism almost disappeared, but in the ninth century it had one great representative, John Scotus Erigena (see Scotus Erigena, Johannes), who was the chief Christian luminary of his time. In the Middle Ages, some of the lesser mystics and probably Johann Tauler and Jan van Ruysbroeck (qq.v.), and one leading scholastic, Albertus Magnus (q.v.), were Universalists. In the times of the Reformation Universalists were found among Anabaptists, Lollards, and Protestant mystics; and later there were increasing numbers of individual believers in this doctrine in all northern European countries, including such men as Kant, Schleiermacher, Ritschl and many of his followers, Archbishop Tillotson, Tennyson, the Brownings, Wordsworth, and Coleridge.

Who Was Rev. Philip Schaff D.D.?

Philip Schaff as an ecumenical prophet: a fresh look at an old plan for Christian reunion | Ecumenical Review, The | Find Articles at BNET.com

Career of the man whom theologians regarded as one of the greatest teachers on Church History

DR. PHILIP SCHAFF'S DEATH; THE END CAME YESTERDAY AT HIS HOME IN THIS ... - Article Preview - The New York Times

Who Was Johann J. Hertzog

Johann Jakob Herzog --* Britannica Online Encyclopedia

Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine

HERE

Not only are copious citations given from the ancient Universalists themselves, but abstracts and compendiums of their opinions, and testimonials as to their scholarship and saintliness, are presented from the most eminent authors who have written of them. No equal number of the church's early saints has ever received such glowing eulogies from so many scholars and critics as the ancient Universalists have extorted from such authors as Socrates, Neander, Mosheim, Huet, Dorner, Dietelmaier, Beecher, Schaff, Plumptre, Bigg, Farrar, Bunsen, Cave, Westcott, Robertson, Butler, Allen, De Pressense, Gieseler, Lardner, Hagenbach, Blunt, and others, not professed Universalists.

[cg81]

Originally Posted by Birdy_56

six theological schools (of which four were believers in the restitution of all things), the other two accepting conditional immortality, and one endless punishment (Carthage or Rome)

No equal number of the church's early saints has ever received such glowing eulogies from so many scholars

"few there be"

[Birdy_56]

Originally Posted by cg81

"few there be"

Indeed:

"And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

[cg81]

Originally Posted by Birdy_56

He that overcometh

Amen......