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Shana, these verses are referring to God's plan of salvation being fulfilled. Jesus came, satan's monopoly was broken. A way was made so that those who believe on Jesus can be saved.
Surely you are not saying that the whole of created life, the ktisis, has already been delivered! Surely the groaning has not been consummated. If so, our Street has missed it, and our city and our hospitals etc, etc, etc. Why do I still hear the groaning? Why do I still hear the chains of sin rattling?
Quote:
The whole of created life (the ktisis) shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption...
"Thou has put all things in subjection under His feet.' In subjecting all things to Him, He left nothing that is not subject to Him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to Him."
The church belongs to the Lord and are His captives now, I believe. Eventually all will be His captives because He has been made heir of all things and He will subject all to Himself that God may be all in all.
Psalm 68:18
"Thou has ascended on high, Thou hast led captive Thy captives; Thou hast received gifts among men, even among the rebellious also, that the Lord God may dwell there. " (NAS)
18. Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them. (KJV)
18. Thou hast ascended on high, Thou hast taken captive captivity, Thou hast taken gifts for men, That even the refractory may rest, O Jah God. (YLT)
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-25-2008 at 05:11 PM..
It sure does say led, and it is in the present progressive tense leading to our God being all and in all, or all in all (take your choice).
The story has been told of when John B. Gough, the great temperance orator, was entertained by some friends in an eastern city, the mother of the household called him aside and asked him to go to her son Edward and have a talk with him. She said that Edward had been a wayward son; in fact, had gone so far in disgracing them that the father forbade him to enter the house. She said that she had pleaded with the father and had prevailed, and that the father had consented to permit Edward to have a room where he would never have to see him.
She said, "Mr. Gough, Edward came home intoxicated a couple days ago and is still in his room. I have been caring for him. Will you not go and have a little talk with him?"
Mr. Gough said, "My dear mother, if you with all your love and patience can not do anything with him, I scarcely think that I can."
With a mother's persistency she finally persuaded Mr. Gough to talk with her son.
He knocked at the door and entering found Edward. Mr. Gough said, "Edward, aren't you tired of the kind of life that you are leading?"
Edward said, "Yes, Mr. Gough, I am sick and tired of it."
"Then why do you not quit it?"
"Quit it? I can't, Mr. Gough; I am bound hand and foot with an evil habit."
"Then why do you not pray, Edward?"
"Pray! I don't believe in prayer; I don't believe in God; I don't believe in anything."
"Oh, yes, you do, Edward," replied Mr. Gough. "You believe in something. You believe that your mother loves you."
Edward replied, "I do not believe anything about it, I know she loves me."
"Thou has put all things in subjection under His feet.' In subjecting all things to Him, He left nothing that is not subject to Him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to Him."
The church belongs to the Lord and are His captives now, I believe. Eventually all will be His captives because He has been made heir of all things and He will subject all to Himself that God may be all in all.
Psalm 68:18
"Thou has ascended on high, Thou hast led captive Thy captives; Thou hast received gifts among men, even among the rebellious also, that the Lord God may dwell there. " (NAS)
18. Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them. (KJV)
18. Thou hast ascended on high, Thou hast taken captive captivity, Thou hast taken gifts for men, That even the refractory may rest, O Jah God. (YLT)
God bless.
Breaking Good News, Shana
The apostle Paul reports that the impact of the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago is shown to be more, not less, powerful than the disobedience of man He created 4,000 years prior (Romans 5:19). Some Christians are horrified and offended by this "heresy" & furiously argue redemption of all mankind is an "insult to the cross of Christ".
Well, Shana, the scope of one man's disobedience pales in comparison with the triumph of the Master of the Reconciliation. It requires two words in koine that cannot be articulated fully in English. The apostle St. Paul uses Greek compounds in what in English is "how much more." Think of it this way...the farthest the finest pitcher can throw a ball is exceeded abundantly beyond, beyond by the Last Adam.
We've debated this subject for awhile now, and I've come to the conclusion that not only do we not believe in the same "Jesus" (see Another Jesus ), we probably don't believe in the same "God" either.. and so how can we come to agreement? It's not possible.
I have learned alot in the last few days while debating this subject.. I have seen that even tho untruth may be deceptive at first, upon closer scrutiny it can never stand up to God's Word. It's scary to see how contradictions and lies are swallowed up, how scripture that is clearly out-of-context is used blindly over and over again, in apparent deception... and yet this also teaches me that the Truth will stand on it's own. There can only be one Truth that fits the whole Bible.
I have been amazed at the clarity and simplicity of God's Word, and how the Truth never contradicts itself. I have been awed at the Holy Spirit's prompting with scriptures.. even tho many times I haven't been as fervent a Bible scholar as I should have been. When the Truth is revealed, there is no need to pick out certain verses, use them out of context, and ignore or disqualify others. It all fits together. It's beautiful.
The Truth will truly set us free. I wish this for each one!
Last edited by cg81; 02-27-2008 at 08:14 AM..
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