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I'd say all Jews, after all, it IS OUR religion...And we should know our Scriptures say better than the Gentiles...
The Jews today are no more authenticated. They can't even keep the original Jewish concepts in Jesus time.
Today's Judaism together with its Talmud is fabricated after AD 200 by a group of unauthenticated rabbis as a result of everything being ruined in AD 70 siege. The authenticated Sanhedrin was gone with the Pharisees and Sadducees. It is after AD200 that a group of unauthenticated rabbis started to revive Judaism.
Back in Jesus' time the dominated concepts believed by the Jews in majority are the Pharisaic concepts such as immortal souls, hell and etc. Today's Judaism however adapts more of the concepts of the Sadducees. On the other hand, the Oral Law is strictly conveyed verbally by the authenticated Pharisees.
So if today's Judaism failed to keep the original Pharisaic concepts (they use the Sadducee version instead), how well you can deliver the Oral Law (which later became your Talmud) correctly. If you lost all the authenticated Pharisaic concepts about immortal souls, about hell and etc., how authenticated will you be able to interpret the OT Bible correctly without those Pharisaic concepts in place?
You had your time, however it's gone. You don't know what is said in your own Scripture. That's the situation!
That said. If you failed to keep the original Jewish concepts, it simply says your messianic concept may not be the same messianic concept 2000 years ago!
The Jews today are no more authenticated. They can't even keep the original Jewish concepts in Jesus time.
Today's Judaism together with its Talmud is fabricated after AD 200 by a group of unauthenticated rabbis as a result of everything being ruined in AD 70 siege. The authenticated Sanhedrin was gone with the Pharisees and Sadducees. It is after AD200 that a group of unauthenticated rabbis started to revive Judaism.
Back in Jesus' time the dominated concepts believed by the Jews in majority are the Pharisaic concepts such as immortal souls, hell and etc. Today's Judaism however adapts more of the concepts of the Sadducees. On the other hand, the Oral Law is strictly conveyed verbally by the authenticated Pharisees.
So if today's Judaism failed to keep the original Pharisaic concepts (they use the Sadducee version instead), how well you can deliver the Oral Law (which later became your Talmud) correctly. If you lost all the authenticated Pharisaic concepts about immortal souls, about hell and etc., how authenticated will you be able to interpret the OT Bible correctly without those Pharisaic concepts in place?
You had your time, however it's gone. You don't know what is said in your own Scripture. That's the situation!
That said. If you failed to keep the original Jewish concepts, it simply says your messianic concept may not be the same messianic concept 2000 years ago!
LOL.
Why don't you take a good look around and wonder how in the world a people could lose their land and be scattered by the wind to the 4 corners of the Earth to suddenly be gathered back to the mountains of Israel after 2000 years.
God said exactly what he would do, and it is being done, and guess what is next?
You should sell all you own and come bringing your money to sit at the feet of Jews.
Belief in the eventual coming of the mashiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism. It is part of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith, the minimum requirements of Jewish belief. In the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, recited three times daily, we pray for all of the elements of the coming of the mashiach: ingathering of the exiles; restoration of the religious courts of justice; an end of wickedness, sin and heresy; reward to the righteous; rebuilding of Jerusalem; restoration of the line of King David; and restoration of Temple service.
No. They were wrong about virtually everything about God and Jesus. They STILL think their Messiah will be a worldly King. Their carnal minds seem to have no clue about anything spiritual.
Mystic whether the Jew were wrong or right about the Messiah I don't think is the issue Richard was bring up. I think (Richard can correct me if I am wrong) Richard brought it up to show others what the Jews believe about the Messiah.
Just because we as Christian believe their view is wrong does not mean they cannot have their own view.
For myself I find the Jewish view on the Messiah very useful and actually agree with them in many parts of their understanding.
When speaking with some of the Jews on the Jewish forum I asked them something along the lines of what they believed about Jesus (can't remember the exact question, was a while ago) and they said that Jesus could not have been the Messiah because he did not fit all the criteria of what the Messiah was suppose to accomplish, thus could not be the Messiah. There is no fault in their reasoning here as Jesus did not fulfill all the criteria of the Messiah.
In response all I pointed out was Jesus did not fulfill all of the criteria YET, as that criteria will not be fulfilled until his return.
So as it stands today Jesus has not fulfilled all the criteria ( the Jews are correct here) of the Messiah, but as Christian we believe in his return and the fulfillment of the Messianic promises.
Most interesting. One Question; I know that kings were messiahs because they were God's anointed choice, but I also gathered that High priests were also anointed messiahs, but in a different, but equally supreme role. Is that correct?
I also gathered that the messiah to come would combine both roles, whether in himself or possibly as a family as the Hasmoneans did.
Grateful for any clarification you can give.
The Qumran Jews it seemed believe in 2 Messiahs, one kingly the other priestly at the same time and those 2 Messiahs would work together to being to pass Gods kingdom on earth.
Sometimes that may work. But NT Jewish authors REINTERPRETED the OT because of Jesus. Jesus Himself held different views of the OT than some of the religious leaders of His day.
Remember the Sadducees (those believing in no resurrection) asking Jesus about a woman who died after burying seven husbands? They asked whose wife would she be in heaven. Jesus replied by referring to Exodus 3:6a--
Jesus used it this way:
Luke 20:34-39
Not one of us would see "proof" of the resurrection in Exodus 3:6. But not only did Jesus see it, so did some of the scribes listening to Him. That's why interpreting Scripture is done in every generation from the cultural base we are in. And it is very difficult not to interpret INTO Scripture our cultural biases. No one said to Jesus that He was 'misinterpreting' Scripture, which we find every single day in this forum when someone states something we do not agree with and we wish to disavow them of it.
None of the OT authors had the slightest clue about Jesus. Not one, not anywhere, not in the slightest. Had Matthew returned to Isaiah's time to tell him about Jesus, Isaiah would have been dumbfounded and confused. But place Isaiah in Matthew's time---after Jesus and let him hear the stories that were flowing around Jerusalem and THEN he might come to a different understanding of the words he penned that Christians like to say "foretold" of Jesus' coming. It didn't in Isaiah's mind, but the author of Matthew may very well have been alive when Jesus was. Matthew REINTERPRETED those OT verses of Isaiah and coined his own nativity story to reflect his new faith and tie it in to Isaiah.
That is what we do as individuals if we are christians. We REINTERPRET events in our own lives to see God working there. It doesn't mean He actually did, but it does mean we have the eyes of faith to see God's presence in our own.
To understand the OT, one must not only see it from a historical-criticism methodology (what was the culture of the day so we can get an idea about why verbiage was penned as such), but also from a hermeneutical methodology (how did the people LISTENING or READING these words understand them). From the example about Exodus 3:6, we can see that understanding of Scripture and "literal" acceptance of Scripture do not always match up with how JESUS saw Scripture--or Matthew or Luke or Paul for that matter.
Many come on here wanting to use Scripture to "prove" their particular theology so they reshape it. Since that is exactly what the NT authors did with the OT one cannot criticize unless one approaches Scripture in the same fashion that NT scholars do---carefully, critically (not meaning criticism), and with a grasp of what it meant when it was first written.
Most of us Protestants have never read any of the apocrypha (although it is referred to a couple of times in the NT). The importance of the apocrypha is that it sometimes gives us a glimpse of how the people of that time interpreted the OT---and most of the time it doesn't come close to how we have reshaped the OT for THIS time frame.
I refer you to Peter Enns' fine book, Inspiration and Incarnation: Evangelicals and the Problem of the Old Testament. He takes a stand of seeing biblical writings as a kind of incarnation--a mixture of the divine and human--to understand some of the things most fundamentalist christians trip over--like the creation story (numerous near eastern creation stories that have similar concepts but written earlier)---and points out that Jesus always spoke to people within their own understanding and culture. He comes to us where we are not where He was. He is not here to give us a blow by blow about how the earth was formed. He is here to bring us to grips with ourselves and His Son, whether that is as a Jew, a non-believer, or another religion. How we accept that main theme reflects our ability to interpret Scripture anew.
No. They were wrong about virtually everything about God and Jesus. They STILL think their Messiah will be a worldly King. Their carnal minds seem to have no clue about anything spiritual.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
Mystic whether the Jew were wrong or right about the Messiah I don't think is the issue Richard was bring up. I think (Richard can correct me if I am wrong) Richard brought it up to show others what the Jews believe about the Messiah.
Just because we as Christian believe their view is wrong does not mean they cannot have their own view.
For myself I find the Jewish view on the Messiah very useful and actually agree with them in many parts of their understanding.
When speaking with some of the Jews on the Jewish forum I asked them something along the lines of what they believed about Jesus (can't remember the exact question, was a while ago) and they said that Jesus could not have been the Messiah because he did not fit all the criteria of what the Messiah was suppose to accomplish, thus could not be the Messiah. There is no fault in their reasoning here as Jesus did not fulfill all the criteria of the Messiah.
In response all I pointed out was Jesus did not fulfill all of the criteria YET, as that criteria will not be fulfilled until his return.
So as it stands today Jesus has not fulfilled all the criteria ( the Jews are correct here) of the Messiah, but as Christian we believe in his return and the fulfillment of the Messianic promises.
I do not deny the Jews their beliefs just because in my opinion they are wrong, pneuma. The Jewish Messiah is a carnal-minded vision and expectation, NOT a spiritual one. Kings are pretty much anachronistic so any expectation of a King David successor among the Jews is preposterous, IMO. They are so focused on the carnal and worldly that they completely missed the genuine spiritual Messiah that God intended to send them. Much of the OT corruption of Christ's mission and message within the Christian community has been of the same carnal-minded type. We are admonished to read the scriptures with Spiritual-mindedness, NOT carnal-mindedness. The majority anti-Christ apostate churches do NOT as prophesied for these latter days.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 09-23-2016 at 04:51 PM..
...like 'Jews For Jesus. They are simply Christians posing as Jews.
Hmmm I had to crack that old vertebrae to feel the remenisent relief.
Yes the Jews for Jesus are a different. I caught that too.
But hey give em a break.
After all, they will defend judaism with every breath.
As every Christian will fight for the rightfull heritage.
If Yisrael were to ask. There will be many to give good news.
I do not deny the Jews their beliefs just because in my opinion they are wrong, pneuma. The Jewish Messiah is a carnal-minded vision and expectation, NOT a spiritual one. Kings are pretty much anachronistic so any expectation of a King David successor among the Jews is preposterous, IMO. They are so focused on the carnal and worldly that they completely missed the genuine spiritual Messiah that God intended to send them. Much of the OT corruption of Christ's mission and message within the Christian community has been of the same carnal-minded type. We are admonished to read the scriptures with Spiritual-mindedness, NOT carnal-mindedness. The majority anti-Christ apostate churches do NOT as prophesied for these latter days.
That is all good brother, but again I do not think that was Richard point of the OP. I think Richard was just pointing out to all what the Jews believed about the Messiah. However I could be wrong on that account, Richard would have to speak up to be sure.
Richard was the post for debate or were you just posting it for information purposes.
That is all good brother, but again I do not think that was Richard point of the OP. I think Richard was just pointing out to all what the Jews believed about the Messiah. However I could be wrong on that account, Richard would have to speak up to be sure.
Richard was the post for debate or were you just posting it for information purposes.
Debate, I guess...It is to show the difference between the two thoughts...Only one can be correct...If the Jewish idea does not agree with the Christian idea, then I'd say that the Christian idea is incorrect...
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