Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Why is it that we never see threads about Christians hating their own sin? It seems like a perverse guilty pleasure to rant about a small group of people you don't know, nor care to know. I just don't get what is in it for you? Hate your own sins, you're not going to become a better person by complaining about other people.
Outstanding, Maiden. I'd love to see more of this as well.
Then I had the desire to find a guy and marry him.
When I went to a gay affirming church, no one said a word on promiscuity. I do know that they believed that there was nothing sinful on mogonomous gay relationships. Even so they neglected key aspects of the bible. There is no passage where the Lord blesses and sanctions gay romantic relationships, even from Jesus very words.
The Bible states no one were born homosexual but we all were born of sin and that was inherited by the first man and woman: Adam and Eve. A person like me can be more prone to homosexuality, just like a straight man can be prone to lust after women. This does not give good excuse to fall into those sins. We all have a choice on how we react and take action on that. The Lord is really interested on how we react to this.
For me I choose to be obedient to the Lord, and that involve abstaining from homosexual activity. I don't even want a boyfriend these days as well.
Arsenokoitai is a compound word: arseno is the word for “a male,” and koitai is the word for “mat” or “bed.” Put the two halves together, and the word means “a male bed”—that is, a person who makes use of a “male-only bed” or a “bed for males.” And, truthfully, that’s all the information we need to understand the intent of 1 Corinthians 6:9.
The word meaning “bed” carries a sexual connotation in this context—the Greek koitai is the source of our English word coitus (“sexual intercourse”). The conclusion is that the word arsenokoitai is referring to homosexuals—men who are in bed with other men, engaging in same-gender sexual activity.
The notion that some homosexual relationships are accepted is not even hinted at in this passage. The men’s commitment level or the presence of “love” is not addressed. The idea that the condemned same-sex activity is linked to economic exploitation or abuse is also a forced reading with no textual basis. Is the Bible truly God's Word?
OUr lives are short and even any of us can loose our life within the next 24 hours. Even so we will face the creator, and I rather stand before the Lord, knowing that his words are true as the Bible is the word of God, than conform to the rest of the world, no matter if governments, and even churches out there state that it is perfectly ok and not a sin. Anyway the bible warns that many will depart from the faith, and false teachers will infect the churches. Nothing is new under the sun.
You MIGHT be correct with that interpretation for Arsenokoitai, but not necessarily. There are plenty of reasons to think it specifically applied to Temple prostitution. You could read Philo, who saw it in a somewhat different light and he lived roughly 25 BCE to 50 CE, or even try one of extreme right wing John MacArthur's co-workers:
Quote:
---anti-gay Calvinist Phil Johnson, a co-worker at John MacArthur's conservative evangelical Grace To You ministry, and certainly not given to defending gay Christians, admits this truth about 1 Cor 6:9, when he writes: “At the heart of all the problems in the church at Corinth... a city filled with both temples and brothels—where fornication was literally deemed a religious rite...
The vast majority of the Jewish community in Corinth had rejected the gospel (Acts 18:6). So the church was made up of mostly Gentiles who, of course, came from a culture that was not inclined to see sexual sin as unspiritual.
I love the fact that so many fundamentalists poo-poo the idea of getting a biblical education and downplay the role that translators, sociologists, psychologists, and historians have played in shaping our views while flat out swallowing Leviticus 20:13 as without any cultural influence on its authorship and accepting verbatim one single view of translated verses like that above. Incidentally, Paul did not likely read a Hebrew Bible. He read a version of the Greek Septuagint, a translation of the Hebrew text.
The point is that CULTURE influenced much of what was believed back then. Look at how OUR culture has impacted us to make completely anti-biblical statements like "God always intended one man to be married to one woman," while completely ignoring an OT chock full of multiple marriages and God blessing unions between "godly" men and prostitutes (or, in the case of Tamar, pretend prostitutes). It is our CULTURE, influenced by the monogamy of the ROMANS which impacts what we read back into the biblical text.
One cannot ignore the fact that culture impacted those WRITING Scripture as well as those READING Scripture.
The one sin that Scripture is clear on--more than any other whatsoever---is that breaking a covenant relationship hurts God tremendously. (Read Hosea--another example of God using a prostitute to teach one of His prophets the importance of faithfulness.
Heterosexual fundamentalists have no problem breaking covenant relationships all the while pointing fingers at homosexuals. Now that the LGBT community can marry, it remains to be seen if they will slide down the slippery slope of anti-God broken covenants that has plagued the heterosexual community profusely since about the middle of the twentieth century.
What totally ridiculous comments!!! This post is about same sex marriage, the actions of the homo...act is part of same sex marriage. I admit, I am disgusted at the actions of homosexuals
Yet the question you keep dodging is to define what the "actions of homosexuals" even are. You can not list ONE single thing homosexuals do that heterosexuals do not.
As for your disgust.... as you said this thread is about same sex MARRIAGE. What has your disgust got to do with it? What goes on in the marriages of other people has nothing to do with you. Do you have any arguments against same sex MARRAIGE? Or is your personal hang ups all you have to offer here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marakorpa
nothing would arouse me less than the thought of anal sex with another male
So people should only be allowed marry if YOU get aroused at the thought of their sex?
You MIGHT be correct with that interpretation for Arsenokoitai, but not necessarily. There are plenty of reasons to think it specifically applied to Temple prostitution. You could read Philo, who saw it in a somewhat different light and he lived roughly 25 BCE to 50 CE, or even try one of extreme right wing John MacArthur's co-workers:
I love the fact that so many fundamentalists poo-poo the idea of getting a biblical education and downplay the role that translators, sociologists, psychologists, and historians have played in shaping our views while flat out swallowing Leviticus 20:13 as without any cultural influence on its authorship and accepting verbatim one single view of translated verses like that above. Incidentally, Paul did not likely read a Hebrew Bible. He read a version of the Greek Septuagint, a translation of the Hebrew text.
The point is that CULTURE influenced much of what was believed back then. Look at how OUR culture has impacted us to make completely anti-biblical statements like "God always intended one man to be married to one woman," while completely ignoring an OT chock full of multiple marriages and God blessing unions between "godly" men and prostitutes (or, in the case of Tamar, pretend prostitutes). It is our CULTURE, influenced by the monogamy of the ROMANS which impacts what we read back into the biblical text.
One cannot ignore the fact that culture impacted those WRITING Scripture as well as those READING Scripture.
The one sin that Scripture is clear on--more than any other whatsoever---is that breaking a covenant relationship hurts God tremendously. (Read Hosea--another example of God using a prostitute to teach one of His prophets the importance of faithfulness.
Heterosexual fundamentalists have no problem breaking covenant relationships all the while pointing fingers at homosexuals. Now that the LGBT community can marry, it remains to be seen if they will slide down the slippery slope of anti-God broken covenants that has plagued the heterosexual community profusely since about the middle of the twentieth century.
Oh and thanks for that link for gaychristian. That website also has a link to the so called fundamentalist Ray Comfort evangelizinghttp://www.gaychristian101.com/How-To-Witness.html, who recently made the anti gay movie Audacity. I would love to see Ray Comfort interview with the creator of gaychristian website and you of course.
As you think about the long history of the church and the near universal disapproval of same-sex sexual activity, what do you think you understand about the Bible that Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, and Luther failed to grasp? Also how long have you believed that gay marriage is something to be celebrated?
Jesus himself said of marriage: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh[.]’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate” (Matthew 19:4–6). Here Jesus clearly referred to Adam and Eve and affirmed God’s intended design for marriage and sexuality. That was God original intent for a man to only have one wife and that has not changed.
With regards to multiple marriages, God did not see it a sin, but it did create problems, and with Solomon with his so many wives, and they included pagan ones, it caused him to worship pagan Gods. It is in contrast to scripture where one should not be yoked equally with unbelievers.
There is no where in the bible that the Lord or even Jesus blessing same sex couples. It only mentions the opposite and see it sinful.
Romans 1:26-27 teaches specifically that homosexuality is a result of denying and disobeying God. When people continue in sin and unbelief, God “gives them over” to even more wicked and depraved sin in order to show them the futility and hopelessness of life apart from God. 1 Corinthians 6:9 proclaims that homosexual “offenders” will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Oh and thanks for that link for gaychristian. That website also has a link to the so called fundamentalist Ray Comfort evangelizingHow To Witness Effectively For Jesus And Share Your Faith, who recently made the anti gay movie Audacity. I would love to see Ray Comfort interview with the creator of gaychristian website and you of course.
As you think about the long history of the church and the near universal disapproval of same-sex sexual activity, what do you think you understand about the Bible that Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, and Luther failed to grasp? Also how long have you believed that gay marriage is something to be celebrated?
Jesus himself said of marriage: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh[.]’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate” (Matthew 19:4–6). Here Jesus clearly referred to Adam and Eve and affirmed God’s intended design for marriage and sexuality. That was God original intent for a man to only have one wife and that has not changed.
With regards to multiple marriages, God did not see it a sin, but it did create problems, and with Solomon with his so many wives, and they included pagan ones, it caused him to worship pagan Gods. It is in contrast to scripture where one should not be yoked equally with unbelievers.
There is no where in the bible that the Lord or even Jesus blessing same sex couples. It only mentions the opposite and see it sinful.
Romans 1:26-27 teaches specifically that homosexuality is a result of denying and disobeying God. When people continue in sin and unbelief, God “gives them over” to even more wicked and depraved sin in order to show them the futility and hopelessness of life apart from God. 1 Corinthians 6:9 proclaims that homosexual “offenders” will not inherit the kingdom of God.
How hideous. (bottom bolded section)
How do you know somebody is not equally yoked? (since no 2 will ever be at the same level, and paganism was quite common back then).
According to the purist bible interpretation though, polygamy is allowed, but fornication is a sin? (fornication with the opposite sex, as opposed to homosexuality- which was described as sin)
How hideous. (bottom bolded section)
How do you know somebody is not equally yoked? (since no 2 will ever be at the same level, and paganism was quite common back then).
According to the purist bible interpretation though, polygamy is allowed, but fornication is a sin? (fornication with the opposite sex, as opposed to homosexuality- which was described as sin)
Well equally yoked means, a man should not marry an unbeliever, or wife to marry an unbeliever. It has caused major problems, as if one reads the old testament, the nation of Israel did have serious problems with its sins when they intermarried with pagans.
Even today if a wife is Christian and the husband is not, or vice versa it does cause problems.
The Bible did not say why God allowed polygamy.
Even with fornication in the Old testament, King David suffered the consequences of sleeping with a woman not his wife and even had the husband of the woman he was sleeping with killed. Yet in the end David was in deep remorse and turned to the Lord for forgiveness. Kind DAvid did commit terrible sin but in the end he was forgiven and had a huge faith in the Lord and the Lord did bless him and rewarded him.
Oh and thanks for that link for gaychristian. That website also has a link to the so called fundamentalist Ray Comfort evangelizingHow To Witness Effectively For Jesus And Share Your Faith, who recently made the anti gay movie Audacity. I would love to see Ray Comfort interview with the creator of gaychristian website and you of course.
Warden (to whom 99 is addressing) and a number of folks on this very forum would mop the floor with Ray Comfort. Ray is essentially a dope as well as an embarrassment to Christianity. He is incapable of serious debate as has been proven many times. There's little more to add to this.
Moreover, why shouldn't Gay Christian be a legitimate source for biblical facts? Why shouldn't such a site defend itself from the glaring inaccuracies of mainstream Christianity when it comes to this topic? That site certainly has more scripture credibility than does your average church pastor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by other99
As you think about the long history of the church and the near universal disapproval of same-sex sexual activity, what do you think you understand about the Bible that Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, and Luther failed to grasp? Also how long have you believed that gay marriage is something to be celebrated?
To my knowledge, it's only in relatively recent times that same-sex sexual activity (as you put it) and gay marriage appeared on the Christian radar. As a kid I don't recall hearing anything about the topic. Does anyone know when 'homosexuality and the church' became an issue?
Quote:
Originally Posted by other99
Jesus himself said of marriage: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh[.]’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate” (Matthew 19:4–6). Here Jesus clearly referred to Adam and Eve and affirmed God’s intended design for marriage and sexuality. That was God original intent for a man to only have one wife and that has not changed.
Let me suggest, 99, that you take that passage of scripture and present it to as many church pastors as you can. Make sure that they read and understand it and take appropriate action. You see, what Jesus is responding to here is a question asked of Him about DIVORCE. Had Jesus not been asked about DIVORCE that passage of scripture would not have been there to begin with. The passage has NOTHING to do with a command to marry someone of the opposite sex or, indeed, to marry at all. That passage has NOTHING to do with homosexuality. That passage has EVERYTHING to do with DIVORCE!
So, if you're so zealous about obedience to scripture, let every pastor that you can contact know that divorce is not permitted within their church and see how long it takes before they show you the door! Divorce and remarriage is common within the church so no pastor is going to allow you to rock the boat with THAT scripture! They MUCH prefer to target gay people with that passage ...it's FAR safer!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by other99
With regards to multiple marriages, God did not see it a sin, but it did create problems, and with Solomon with his so many wives, and they included pagan ones, it caused him to worship pagan Gods. It is in contrast to scripture where one should not be yoked equally with unbelievers.
How about God encouraging rapists to marry their victims, 99? Does that sit well with you? Do you have a convenient excuse for this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by other99
There is no where in the bible that the Lord or even Jesus blessing same sex couples.
Would you present a scripture that 'blesses' opposite sex couples?
Quote:
Originally Posted by other99
It only mentions the opposite and see it sinful.
Poorly worded but I know what you mean. Gay marriage is not mentioned anywhere in scripture so there is no opportunity for it to be called 'sinful'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by other99
Romans 1:26-27 teaches specifically that homosexuality is a result of denying and disobeying God. When people continue in sin and unbelief, God “gives them over” to even more wicked and depraved sin in order to show them the futility and hopelessness of life apart from God. 1 Corinthians 6:9 proclaims that homosexual “offenders” will not inherit the kingdom of God.
I'm not going to go through this charade yet again other than to say that you, 99, have no idea what you're talking about. Do an indepth Bible study on Romans 1:21-27 then come back and discuss it.
Well equally yoked means, a man should not marry an unbeliever, or wife to marry an unbeliever. It has caused major problems, as if one reads the old testament, the nation of Israel did have serious problems with its sins when they intermarried with pagans.
Even today if a wife is Christian and the husband is not, or vice versa it does cause problems.
The Bible did not say why God allowed polygamy.
Even with fornication in the Old testament, King David suffered the consequences of sleeping with a woman not his wife and even had the husband of the woman he was sleeping with killed. Yet in the end David was in deep remorse and turned to the Lord for forgiveness. Kind DAvid did commit terrible sin but in the end he was forgiven and had a huge faith in the Lord and the Lord did bless him and rewarded him.
Well, this is the Christianity forum but the thread is about how Christians should regard the GBLT's, not to mention straight -up fornicators such as myself.
Yes, unequally yoked and the problems caused by religion is reason we should do away with it. The Bible does not say why it allows polygamy, any more than it says why it allows slavery, subjugation, use and exploitation of women and war,war and more war. We know why - because it is the way men think and thought and men wrote the Bible and preferred not to explain why the favoured kings of the Hebrews deserved all the women they wanted.
The OT stories are about a small nation that and problems with big Empires as did the other nations. It did just what Christians do now - everything that went well, God got the credit, everything that wen bad was blamed on man - and how convenient to blame it on being too tolerant about other religions and their gods.
The debate is really over and the US knows it will not now roll back Gay rights and Same sex marriage is going to happen more and more.
Christians with same -sex inclinations are hardly going to have a problem with the OT. They know very well that there are apologists who refer to Leviticus when it suits their argument but dismiss it under the "Jesus fulfiilled the Law"" (which of course means do away with it, just as Paul wanted) when it doesn't suit them. And Christianity picks and chooses what suits it even from the NT. Sabbath doesn't matter? Give all you have to the poor?
Discussions with Old Eusebius about Jesus endorsing Genesis. Evidently many Christians can't accept Adam and Eve and the Flood as anything morre than a metaphorical tale, no matter what Jesus is supposed to have said. It's easy to explain but a bit uncomfortable as it shows up the cracks in scripture, and they probably prefer to ignore it and just do what they like.
It's like this: one man and one woman for breeding, sure, but the rest of the time, please yourself. It may tell you how to pray but doesn't say you can't watch TV or play a computer game, the rest of the time.
Essentially, Christians with same sex inclinations have to decide: The NT is heavily weighted against Sin, but the rest of humanity seems to get away with a lot of it, so why pick on Gays? There is a lot of Cafeteria Christianity and the OT is simply irrelevant folks, and don't let the Fundies (who cherry pick what they like from it) tell you any different.
In the end, GBLT's have to work it out with the god they believe in and if it says "This is how I made you", then don't let the Leviticus - literalist who nevertheless sees nothing wrong in adding yoghourt to Lamb curry tell you different.
And if the Church you attend has a ranting anti - gay preacher, find another church.
Oh and thanks for that link for gaychristian. That website also has a link to the so called fundamentalist Ray Comfort evangelizingHow To Witness Effectively For Jesus And Share Your Faith, who recently made the anti gay movie Audacity. I would love to see Ray Comfort interview with the creator of gaychristian website and you of course.
As you think about the long history of the church and the near universal disapproval of same-sex sexual activity, what do you think you understand about the Bible that Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, and Luther failed to grasp? Also how long have you believed that gay marriage is something to be celebrated?
Jesus himself said of marriage: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh[.]’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate” (Matthew 19:4–6). Here Jesus clearly referred to Adam and Eve and affirmed God’s intended design for marriage and sexuality. That was God original intent for a man to only have one wife and that has not changed.
With regards to multiple marriages, God did not see it a sin, but it did create problems, and with Solomon with his so many wives, and they included pagan ones, it caused him to worship pagan Gods. It is in contrast to scripture where one should not be yoked equally with unbelievers.
There is no where in the bible that the Lord or even Jesus blessing same sex couples. It only mentions the opposite and see it sinful.
Romans 1:26-27 teaches specifically that homosexuality is a result of denying and disobeying God. When people continue in sin and unbelief, God “gives them over” to even more wicked and depraved sin in order to show them the futility and hopelessness of life apart from God. 1 Corinthians 6:9 proclaims that homosexual “offenders” will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Who were the ones doing the offending in Romans 1:26-27? Regular sinners in Rome? Or was it Roman Christians caught up in the CULTURE of temple prostitution.
You mentioned several early church leaders but failed to mention John Chrysotom from near Augustine's time:
---------
"In his fourth homily on Romans,[5] St. John Chrysostom argued in the fourth century that homosexual acts are worse than murder and so degrading that they constitute a kind of punishment in itself, and that enjoyment of such acts actually makes them worse, "for suppose I were to see a person running naked, with his body all besmeared with mire, and yet not covering himself, but exulting in it, I should not rejoice with him, but should rather bewail that he did not even perceive that he was doing shamefully." He also said: "But nothing can there be more worthless than a man who has pandered himself. For not the soul only, but the body also of one who hath been so treated, is disgraced, and deserves to be driven out everywhere."
However, he emphasizes, in P.G. 60:417, col. 1, near bottom of the column, that he (and Paul) is not referring to two men who are in love with one another, but who burn in their appetite for each other. He writes, clarifying Paul's position in Romans 1, "He did not say that they fell in love [< "eros"] or had passion for each other, but rather that they `burned in their appetite for each other'."
--------
(Wikipedia, The History of Christianity and Homosexuality)
This early church leader said Paul's writing had nothing to do with two men who love one another!
The Church affirmed gay marriages as early as 100 CE. From an article entitled "Gay Marriage in 100 AD" is this excerpt from Catholic scholar John Boswell who has studied the subject since the early seventies:
----------
The burial rite given for Achilles and Patroclus, both men, was the burial rite for a man and his wife. The relationships of Hadrian and Antinous, of Polyeuct and Nearchos, of Perpetua and Felicitas, and of Saints Serge and Bacchus, all bore resemblance to heterosexual marriages of their times. The iconography of Serge and Bacchus was even used in same-sex nuptial ceremonies by the early Christian Church.
------------
Do you believe those early church fathers who said sex was solely for the procreation of mankind? That was an Augustinian view.
While alternate interpretations are certainly understandable only one interpretation fits in with the person of Jesus as revealed in the gospels. That is one of acceptance and love. The crap you put yourself through daily to meet the expectations of people who refuse to see the multiple cultures that have impacted Scripture is a sad testimony of the harm it causes so many. And you KNOW the hurt and pain those beliefs foster onto many LGBT people. And that's the jesus you are proclaiming.
And, no, Jesus may have spoken of a man being one with his wife, but the entire topic was concerning divorce which is largely ignored by bigots of today's culture.
God is love. It is a descriptive term unlike all other attributes people see in God. We may say God is just or God is merciful, but we do not describe Him as "God is justice," or "God is mercy." Only with love is the substantitive term applied to God.
You have broken covenant with how you were created and have built a wall to try to protect yourself and mold a life others have declared you must have.
So much for freedom in Christ. You are simply another "Other" being crucified daily for "their" satisfaction. I truly feel sorry for you and it arouses much anger in me to see what fundamentalist thinking does to oppress people Jesus came to set free.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 09-26-2016 at 05:19 AM..
Reason: Name correction
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
