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Old 10-06-2016, 05:45 PM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cuja1 View Post
I can't come to grips with the idea that a loving God would torture someone for eternity. Even Hitler, I would think, would have to have some end to the punishment.
It makes sense to me that if someone murdered someone's family member and continued to be the type of person that would want to murder other people, God would not want that type of person in heaven, no matter how loving He is. I could see a perfect God not wanting someone in heaven with Him if that person was always thinking about ways to cause trouble as well and never wanted to change that. But eternal torture or even eternal suffering seems too much for me to grasp.
I think there can be a lot of freedom to interpret scriptures though. The Bible has shown itself to be vague and metaphorical on many occasions so attaching a definite meaning to a verse can't always be done IMO.
I have heard that Hate is not the opposite of love, indifference is. If you hate a person it means you still care about them on some level. Maybe that verse just means that God was extremely disappointed in Esau. I don't know.
Maybe God can be in the presence of sin, but He won't tolerate it forever.
I believe in God but I have to use a very liberal interpretation for it to mean something that I find acceptable. I don't put a whole lot of emphasis on what is in the OT or Revelation. I wonder in part if much of the OT was more of a parable or a myth for the Jewish people. Even C.S. Lewis alluded to this. I am careful at the same time to keep the option open that it is all 100% true word for word.
I realized that even my church takes a liberal interpretation of scripture. Once the preacher said that the idea that bad things happen because God is punishing someone is an archaic idea that needs to be done away with. But isn't that what the OT is all about? God brought forth all sorts of disasters on people for disobeying Him. So how can a Bible believing church say that bad things don't happen as punishment from God? That's why I think that the Bible can be interpreted differently even among Bible believing churches.

 
Old 10-06-2016, 07:15 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,192,722 times
Reputation: 2295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Death and Hades/Sheol won't be needed anymore. Children of God will be with Him, and others will be either eternally separated from Him, or annihilated (take your pick), and after that time no one will die.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
I see nothing legitimate, logical, or sensible when it comes to fanaticism.
However, you may have the opportunity to express yourself in his presence?

There are only two places in the New Testament where Aidios is used.
W
hich speak to that of his eternal power, but nothing about life and death.

For both, have a beginning and an end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post

One of the rare times I agree with Mystic, and you call it fanaticism.

Go figure.
The first sentence was good, it went downhill from there with the lotto outcome.
 
Old 10-06-2016, 08:28 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,192,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanokh View Post
You are the one that is teaching a different Gospel from the Bible, remember Christ said:

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
It's the false teachers' and their messengers who are cast into the aionion fire?

For the words endless torment (adialeipton timorion), eternal imprisonment (aidios eirgmos) and eternal punishment (aidios kalasin) do not appear anywhere in the Greek New Testament, at least not in conjunction. Neither, will you find the term aidios timorion or eternal torment. Therefore, whoever says that there is an eternal (aidios) time set for
torment/punishment (kalasin) beyond this life is sadly mistaken. It's a limited duration of aionion (αἰώνιον - a period of time, as in an age) kalasin (Κόλασιν - chastisement or correction) which is in view; but the day and hour that it begins and ends is unpredictable. If it were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used. But not even Jesus used the word for eternal in conjunction with any kind of punishment or life.

And the Hebrew word olam merely means in the distance, or over the horizon.
In other words, it does not contain the English concept of an eternity.



Last edited by Jerwade; 10-06-2016 at 08:38 PM..
 
Old 10-06-2016, 11:40 PM
 
1,613 posts, read 1,019,329 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
But hold on for a second. Revelation specifically says that God keeps a set of book out of which we will be judged from.

So your bad deeds are recorded in the books, these deeds determine whether or not you make it into the Book of Life, and if you're not in the Book of Life you're cast into the Lake of Fire. Sounds to me like God definitely does NOT forget sins therefore we cannot say Love doesn't remember sins.
I agree that there is a book of life. Our friend Livelystone had an NDE and saw it. However, it cannot be a record of sins, only a record of whether someone 'has life', as in understands they have the indwelling Christ in them and is alive to that Truth. You just get to go around the block for another age.
 
Old 10-07-2016, 12:43 AM
 
1,419 posts, read 1,039,263 times
Reputation: 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuja1 View Post
Here's a question for you. Do you believe to not go to hell, you have to follow Jesus with all your heart soul mind and strength? That Jesus won't except anything less than all of you?

How can you give that kind of devotion to someone you can't even see, feel, hear, touch, or smell?
I have a hard enough time doing what my wife wants let alone a being that I can't even sit and converse with. I know we can pray but we don't even get an audible voice. How can you give that kind of devotion? And then if you don't you spend eternity burning alive.
Jesus knows our weaknesses, and He is not a harsh tyrant, neither is the Father or the Holy Spirit. We do not need any 'works' to enter heaven, we are not capable in our own strength to deliver any of that.

That is why we are saved by grace, unmerited favour, we can come to the fountain freely to receive everlasting life, read Isaiah 55 for instance:

Isaiah 55:1-3 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

We need to have had sincere faith in Jesus Christ in this life - whatever we build on that foundation will be important for reward in heaven, but the foundation is the reason we go there. Though true faith in Jesus Christ will always bear fruit, because we receive the Holy Spirit and our hearts are changed when we were born again. So by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we have a means to actually put our faith in Jesus Christ and do the works God has ordained for us in His strength, even though we do not see or touch Him our renewed lives are proof that He is alive. But in our own strength we cannot work our own salvation, this is impossible indeed, but we must look on Him who has bought it for us and simple faith will be our everlasting life.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
 
Old 10-07-2016, 02:32 AM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 21,861,394 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanokh View Post
Jesus knows our weaknesses, and He is not a harsh tyrant, neither is the Father or the Holy Spirit. We do not need any 'works' to enter heaven, we are not capable in our own strength to deliver any of that.

That is why we are saved by grace, unmerited favour, we can come to the fountain freely to receive everlasting life, read Isaiah 55 for instance:

Isaiah 55:1-3 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

We need to have had sincere faith in Jesus Christ in this life - whatever we build on that foundation will be important for reward in heaven, but the foundation is the reason we go there. Though true faith in Jesus Christ will always bear fruit, because we receive the Holy Spirit and our hearts are changed when we were born again. So by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we have a means to actually put our faith in Jesus Christ and do the works God has ordained for us in His strength, even though we do not see or touch Him our renewed lives are proof that He is alive. But in our own strength we cannot work our own salvation, this is impossible indeed, but we must look on Him who has bought it for us and simple faith will be our everlasting life.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


1Ho! All who thirst, go to water, and whoever has no money, go, buy and eat, and go, buy without money and without a price, wine and milk.
Ho! All who thirst: Heb. הוֹי. This word הוֹי is an expression of calling, inviting, and gathering, and there are many in Scripture, [e. g.,] (Zech. 2:10) “Ho! Ho! and flee from the north land.”


Rashi:

go to water: to Torah.

buy: Heb. שִׁבְרוּ. Comp. (Gen. 42:3) “To buy (לִשְׁבֹּר) corn,” buy.

wine and milk: Teaching better than wine and milk.

2Why should you weigh out money without bread and your toil without satiety? Hearken to Me and eat what is good, and your soul shall delight in fatness.


Rashi:
Why should you weigh out money: Why should you cause yourselves to weigh out money to your enemies without bread?

3Incline your ear and come to Me, hearken and your soul shall live, and I will make for you an everlasting covenant, the dependable mercies of David.

Rabbi:
the dependable mercies of David: For I will repay David for his mercies.


Rabbi:
 
Old 10-07-2016, 07:25 AM
 
Location: Springfield, Il
384 posts, read 380,129 times
Reputation: 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanokh View Post
Jesus knows our weaknesses, and He is not a harsh tyrant, neither is the Father or the Holy Spirit. We do not need any 'works' to enter heaven, we are not capable in our own strength to deliver any of that.

That is why we are saved by grace, unmerited favour, we can come to the fountain freely to receive everlasting life, read Isaiah 55 for instance:

Isaiah 55:1-3 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

We need to have had sincere faith in Jesus Christ in this life - whatever we build on that foundation will be important for reward in heaven, but the foundation is the reason we go there. Though true faith in Jesus Christ will always bear fruit, because we receive the Holy Spirit and our hearts are changed when we were born again. So by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we have a means to actually put our faith in Jesus Christ and do the works God has ordained for us in His strength, even though we do not see or touch Him our renewed lives are proof that He is alive. But in our own strength we cannot work our own salvation, this is impossible indeed, but we must look on Him who has bought it for us and simple faith will be our everlasting life.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Thank you
 
Old 10-07-2016, 08:47 AM
 
Location: Canada
11,123 posts, read 6,329,176 times
Reputation: 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanokh View Post
You are the one that is teaching a different Gospel from the Bible, remember Christ said:

.
Am I? Not according to And1 Timothy 4:10-11 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe, these things command and teach.
Quote:


remember Christ said:

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

So when Christ says depart from Me, He really means 'go get cleansed in the lake of fire and then return and enter My Kingdom'?! And when He says cursed, what He means is temporarily cursed until ye get blessed. Or is this one of the bits of the Bible we shouldn't take literally because they don't suit your theology? The fact that you would deny a literal flood is such obvious proof that you will just twist the Word of God to fit your own false theology.


Ok if there was a literal flood show how 7 clean and 2 unclean of every animal on the planet along with food enough to sustain them for 1 years as well as all the animal waste can fit in a boat of only 450 feet long. Our largest ships of today could not even carry all that stuff.

Quote:
You are the one taking the word aeon and twisting it to suit your own purposes, the same you do for olam appearantly which is not just a word expressing a finite length of time but also used in the context of Gods eternality in the OT, obviously there is a definite meaning of eternality there and the same goes for aeon. There is a finite sense of the word, but you take it and stick it on any context, even when the context is so obviously eternal.


Who twisting the words to make it fit their doctrine, it ain't me. Ask any Jew what olam means and they will tell you it means an undefined period of time. The thing to note is that it still deals with TIME. They do not know how long of a period of TIME it is going to be, but they know that the TIME will eventually pass.

Quote:
From carm.org:

With the claim that "aionion" can be translated into something temporal and that its root means "age," the universalist then says that any reference to "eternal fire," "eternal torment," or "eternal punishment" is not really eternal. Instead of "eternal torment," it is "aionion torment." Instead of "eternal punishment," it is "aionion punishment." That way, to the universalist, there is no eternal hell, no eternal punishment, and no eternal damnation. Everyone will be saved.
This approach by the Universalists can be confusing to someone who doesn't understand Greek, and that is part of the reason that Universalism has followers. It is true that the root "aion" means age. But just because a root means age does not mean that every word derived from that root means a limited duration of time. For example, consider this verse that is speaking about God:
who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen, (1 Tim. 6:16)
The context is obviously dealing with God's eternal nature. The word in Greek for "immortality" is "athanatos." The Greek word for death is "thanatos." The "a" in front of the word is the negator -- without, non, etc. It means that God is deathless; hence, immortal. This is an eternal quality of God. Likewise, the verse states that God has eternal dominion. The word for "eternal" is "aionios" which is derived from the Greek root "aion" which means age. But, God is not immortal for only an "age," nor is His dominion temporal. The word "eternal" is absolutely the best way to translate the Greek "aionion" because God is immortal and eternal. Therefore, it would be wrong to translate the verse by stating that God has "aionion" dominion. Rather, He has eternal dominion.

As I cover this in the link I gave you and you say you are reading it I will wait until you get there and read my reply.

Quote:
And 1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. which you use as sort of a magical verse which would prove universalism, is not talking about universalism. In a temporal sense yes Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men, we do not get damned the instance we commit a sin, there is a temporal preservation. But ask yourself why there would be the statement 'especially of those that believe' if eternal life would be the destiny of all of mankind - believers and unbelievers? Which would go directly against the rest of the testimony of Scripture, but then again you only seem to pick and choose the parts that fit your theology.


The difference between all men and specially those that believe is that those that believe will rule and reign with Christ. Who is their to rule and reign over if there is only those that believe?

Quote:
Barnes also explains the verse clearly:

Who is the Saviour of all men - This must be understood as denoting that he is the Saviour of all people in some sense which differs from what is immediately affirmed - "especially of those that believe." There is something pertaining to "them" in regard to salvation which does not pertain to "all men." It cannot mean that he brings all people to heaven, "especially" those who believe - for this would be nonsense. And if he brings all people actually to heaven, how can it be "especially" true that he does this in regard to those who believe? Does it mean that he saves others "without" believing? But this would be contrary to the uniform doctrine of the Scriptures; see Mark 16:16. When, therefore, it is said that he "is the Saviour of 'all' people, 'especially' of those who believe," it must mean that there is a sense in which it is true that he may be called the Saviour of all people, while, at the same time, it is "actually" true that those only are saved who believe. This may be true in two respects:

(1) As he is the "Preserver" of people Job 7:20, for in this sense he may be said to "save" them from famine, and war, and peril - keeping them from day to day; compare Psalm 107:28;

(2) as he has "provided" salvation for all people. He is thus their Saviour - and may be called the common Saviour of all; that is, he has confined the offer of salvation to no one class of people; he has not limited the atonement to one division of the human race; and he actually saves all who are willing to be saved by him.

What a load of nonsense. Why cannot it mean what it says? Because Barnes like most believe in eternal torment so of course it cannot mean what it says.

Here is the thing you might well want to take note of Chanokh.

Instead of believing what is plainly written men/women come up with all kinds of ideas of why it cannot mean what it says. Why do they do this? Because of unbelief and because of their indoctrination.

In other words It cannot mean what it say because they believe in eternal torment or annihilation. So instead of believing what we are commanded to teach, they try their best to tear it all down and make it fit with their doctrine instead of letting the gospel define their doctrine.

It has been often asked if God wanted us to believe something why did He not tell us plainly what to believe. I have always said He did and give this scripture.

1 Timothy 4:10-11 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe, these things command and teach.

The problem is people refuse to believe Him in what He plainly tells us to believe and even commands us to teach.
 
Old 10-07-2016, 09:14 AM
 
18,193 posts, read 16,778,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Age-enduring View Post
I agree that there is a book of life. Our friend Livelystone had an NDE and saw it. However, it cannot be a record of sins, only a record of whether someone 'has life', as in understands they have the indwelling Christ in them and is alive to that Truth. You just get to go around the block for another age.
But the why does Revelation refer to two books? Revelation 20:12 most specifically says

Quote:
The dead were judged according to what they had done (sinful deeds) as recorded in the books.
So we are most definitely judged based on what that book has in it which are our sinful deeds.
 
Old 10-07-2016, 09:21 AM
 
Location: Canada
11,123 posts, read 6,329,176 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanokh View Post
I will just reply to your article piece by piece:
Glad you are taking the time to read it, hopefully with an open mind.

Quote:
When we limit God salvation to just man we do much damage to the scriptures, and put a limit on the only one who is without limit. We diminish the fullness of the cross of our Lord by saying it only reaches to mankind. ALL THINGS in heaven and earth and under the earth are reconciled by way of the cross. And yes that includes Satan.

When you say that satan and demons will be saved, you fail to understand why the cross was relevant to human beings alone. Why was the life, suffering, death and ressurection necessary for the Lord Jesus Christ? Why all those years here on earth, you'd think that 1 minute would be enough and that a pinch in the finger would be plenthy for the infinitely Holy Son of God to atone for our sin. But that wasn't the Fathers plan, it was the Fathers will that His Son should truly become one of us - truly become a man and truly experience what it was like to be a human being, to be tempted in all things yet without sin. Why should that be important? So He could be the proper Mediator between God and man, having fully experienced and suffered what we suffer, He can truly relate to our cause and weakness - nothing we experience is strange to the Lord Jesus Christ - and yet in His Divinity He also is fully God and therefore the perfect Person to be the means to reconcile sinful humanity back to a relationship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
He not only experienced what we experience, but He also fully bore Gods wrath for our sin - that is how much He loved and loves us.

But clearly this sacrifice He made was a human sacrifice, He came in the flesh and suffered in the flesh, He did not become a demon to relate to demonic beings and He did not sacrifice Himself for their reconciliation - to say such a thing is absolutely absurd - the Bible makes it clear that satan is only awaiting eternal destruction.




Infact when demons are confronted with the Lord Jesus, they know there will be an appointed time for their torment:

Matthew 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

It is clear that the demons know that Jesus is the Son of God, they "believe" in Him, yet does the Scripture anywhere say they can repent from their demonic ways and become reconciled to God? No, their faith is not unto salvation as true faith would be for human beings - there is no possibility for repentance for satan or demons as there is for us.

Look at what James, the brother of our Lord says:

James 2:19-20 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Well if you are going to reply piece by piece please also use and address the scriptures I gave for my reasons for believing as I do. Here they are.


Ephesians 1:10
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Philippians 2:10-11
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Just by these two scriptures above we can see that all things in the heaven will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. But not only those things in the heavens, but those things in the earth and under the earth also confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

ALL THINGS are reconciled by way of the cross of our Lord.

Colossians 1:16-20
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Now least any say, but Col.1:16-20 says nothing about Satan being reconciled, I would point out that ALL THINGS in heaven, ALL THINGS in the earth, both visible and INVISIBLE, are reconciled.

Also note that it states that THRONES, DOMINIONS, PRINCIPALITIES and POWERS are also reconciled by way of the cross.

So who are these THRONES, DOMINIONS, PRINCIPALITIES and POWERS?

Ephesians 6:12 tells us.


Ephesians 6:12
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Now according to the above scriptures even those things we war against ( devils in high places ) are reconciled by way of the cross.


And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Note that the LIGHT shineth IN the darkness.

The darkness also has the Light and in the dispensation of the fullness of times, that Light is going to shine out of great darkness.

Yes the darkness will be gone for only the Light that is within it will remain, same as with us.

ALL THINGS are reconciled by way of the cross , I do not place a limit on Gods salvation for it is without limit.

We can see this even more fully when we read how the Gospel is made known unto principalities and powers in HEAVENY PLACES.

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly placesmight be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Praise God His cross is without limitations.


Quote:
And do you know why I am convinced you are unsaved, because you cannot spiritually discern these things. You haven't repented from your sin, put your faith wholly in Jesus Christ alone for your salvation and received the Holy Spirit as a surety of your eternal life, because in your ignorant zeal you proclaim that demons can be saved - which is in itself nothing short of a demonic and false doctrine. Repent while there is time because the Lord doesn't want you to perish like satan and his demonic angels, and as a human being you actually can be saved and receive eternal life my friend.

God bless you

Well I just gave you scripture that says ALL THINGS are reconciled by way of the cross of our Lord and that unto the principalities and powers in heavenly placesmight be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God



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