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Old 10-17-2016, 12:49 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,318,360 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The podcast is still available to watch through Nov. 7th, but apparently you have to give your name and email to receive information on how to access it, which I don't want to do. But I think I'll order the book.

But yes, perichoresis, the divine dance is an ancient doctrine which views the Trinity as the mutual interpenetration or indwelling of each of the three Persons of the Trinity with each other to the extent that the three Persons do not have separate existence, but are one Being. And if you stop and think about it, the fact that God is love means that God has had to have something to love. Before anything was created, there was only God, and so each Person of the Trinity directed His love toward the other two Persons of the Godhead.

Mike good stuff as always. FWIW and as you probably already know full well, the Church traditionally (east and west) has regarded the "exact" nature of the Trinity as a divine MYSTERY which we as limited mortals can never fully understand. think that even theologians admit that all our "definitions" and "concept" about God at some point break down in the futility of the tiny and limited part trying to comprehend the infinite and transcendent whole and we are left with that mystery of faith which is likely ultimately (as you mentioned) all about LOVE.


there is an old story that supposedly St. Augustine who seemingly loved to ponder imponderables was walking by the sea while contemplating the Trinity and apparently not getting anywhere (sort of like most of us here and now). while he was wrestling in thought he came upon a small child trying to put sand into a small bucket. Augustine stopped to ask the child exactly what he intended to do and was told "I intend to put ALL the sand on this beach into my bucket". Augustine with an indulgent smile told the child that this was impossible for him or anyone either with one bucket or an infinite number---to which the Child is supposed to have replied with an equally indulgent smile to the effect that, "my efforts to collect all the sand on the beach in a bucket is just as impossible as for you to resolve that which you are trying to comprehend in your head!!!".

it is said that Augustine left both beach and child MAYBE with both a clearer mind and a humbler spirit about what he should ever expect to know about the full truth of the exact nature the Godhead.


or as Paul perhaps feeling a similar kind of frustration in understanding yet with hope as well put it in 1 Cor. 13, "...for we know (only) in part and prophecy in part but when the perfect comes the partial passes away....now we see a dim reflection as in a mirror, then we shall see face to face. now I know in part then I shall know fully---even as I am known."


OTOH, at least part of the discussion on this subject is probably wrapped up in our answer to the question Jesus put to his disciples---"who do you think I am?" if we believe that Jesus (somehow and in someway) IS God (in the sense of SHARING in that Godhead from eternity) then we will likely believe in some kind of doctrine rather similar to the traditional concept of the Trinity---if not then we end up with a "Unitarian" Christology (think Wikipedia has an article on "Christology") with a somewhat different conception of both Jesus and His relationship with His "Father"?


in the peace of Christ.

Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 10-17-2016 at 01:56 PM..

 
Old 10-17-2016, 01:48 PM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,098,228 times
Reputation: 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marakorpa View Post
If the Trinity Theory is correct, then the words of God are not true; however the Word of God is true and accurate so consider this.

Jesus came to earth a man, he was born a man, a perfect man but a man none-the-less. The Bible says that 'No man has seen God and lived'. To start with Jehovah is invisible to mankind, his works and his attributes can be seen and understood but man has not made visible contact with the Almighty.
The MAN Jesus has not seen God and lived. His Divine nature has, though.
Quote:
So, If Jesus was 'God' and Jesus was man, he would not be able to see himself, not did he claim to see His Father whilst he was a mortal man, he did, however, refer to his heavenly Father many times in the second person, as someone that was not H himself (Jesus) but the Almighty Spirit Being and Creator of all things.
Not only "was" he God, but he IS God.



If you're actuallyt interested in reading, or learning what Christianity teaches, here's a good link: https://gotquestions.org/seen-God.html
 
Old 10-17-2016, 02:22 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,928 posts, read 26,160,446 times
Reputation: 16087
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeinbandonoregon View Post
Mike good stuff as always. FWIW and as you probably already know full well, the Church traditionally (east and west) has regarded the "exact" nature of the Trinity as a divine MYSTERY which we as limited mortals can never fully understand. think that even theologians admit that all our "definitions" and "concept" about God at some point break down in the futility of the tiny part trying to comprehend the transcendent whole and we are left with that mystery of faith which is likely ultimately (as you mentioned) all about LOVE.


there is an old story that supposedly St. Augustine who loved to ponder imponderables was walking by the sea while contemplating the Trinity and apparently not getting anywhere (sort of like most of us here and now). while he was wrestling in thought he came upon a small child trying to put sand into a small bucket. Augustine stopped to ask the child exactly what he intended to do and was told "I intend to put ALL the sand on this beach into my bucket". Augustine with an indulgent smile told the child that this was impossible for him or anyone either with one bucket or an infinite number---to which the Child is supposed to have replied with an equally indulgent smile to the effect that, "my efforts to collect all the sand on the beach in a bucket is just as impossible as for you to resolve that which you are trying to comprehend in your head!!!".

it is said that Augustine left both beach and child MAYBE with both a clearer mind and a humbler spirit about what he should ever expect to know about the full truth of the exact nature the Godhead.


or as Paul perhaps feeling a similar kind of frustration in understanding yet with hope as well put it in 1 Cor. 13, "...for we know (only) in part and prophecy in part but when the perfect comes the partial passes away....now we see a dim reflection as in a mirror, then we shall see face to face. now I know in part then I shall know fully---even as I am known."


OTOH, at least part of the discussion on this subject is probably wrapped up in our answer to the question Jesus put to his disciples---"who do you think I am?" if we believe that Jesus (somehow and in someway) IS God (in the sense of SHARING in that Godhead from eternity) then we will likely believe in some kind of doctrine rather similar to the traditional concept of the Trinity---if not then we end up with a "Unitarian" Christology (think Wikipedia has an article on "Christology") with a somewhat different conception of both Jesus and His relationship with His "Father"?


in the peace of Christ.
Thanks George. And I agree that we don't and can't understand the exact nature of God. How does the finite mind of man comprehend eternal and infinite God? I suspect that even in the eternal state we will never know all there is to know about God and that we will always be learning new things about Him and about His creation. But we can know what He has revealed about Himself in the Bible which is that while He is one, there are three Persons who are said to be God, and that they all had a hand in creation.

It's difficult to understand how those who say that Jesus was only a man can make that claim when it is clearly stated in the Scriptures that He is also God and that it was He who actually brought all things into existence. But people do have a talent for denying whatever they for whatever reason don't want to believe.

I guess I won't bother trying to put all the sand in the Chihuahuan Desert into my little bucket.
 
Old 10-17-2016, 04:43 PM
 
Location: Australia
481 posts, read 261,030 times
Reputation: 128
Thank you for the varied opinions. Something as simple as the trinity????? you would think would only have one definition or interpretation.

Oh! What a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive...... Walter Scott must have been talking about the trinity, I am sure.
 
Old 10-17-2016, 04:52 PM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,483,918 times
Reputation: 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
I just watched a podcast about the Trinity (the Divine Dance) yesterday with Richard Rohr and Wm. Paul Young. I don't know if it's still available to watch, but even as a heathen I found their thoughts on the Trinity very compelling in a lot of ways. They take the concept beyond the literal understanding which Christians quibble over, into a depth of understanding that makes the quibbling essentially unnecessary.

https://cac.org/events/webcasts/upco...-divine-dance/
amen sister.

It doesn't matter. When you truly find "him", it doesn't matter. Religion is like a boat, when you reach yonder shore and you talk with others, the boats used are not the number one issue. If someone is in the water and needs a boat, you (we) get them a boat.

watching the quibbling is like watching two captains fighting about whose boat is more better. Most logical.
 
Old 10-17-2016, 04:57 PM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,098,228 times
Reputation: 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
amen sister.

It doesn't matter. When you truly find "him", it doesn't matter. Religion is like a boat, when you reach yonder shore and you talk with others, the boats used are not the number one issue. If someone is in the water and needs a boat, you (we) get them a boat.

watching the quibbling is like watching two captains fighting about whose boat is more better. Most logical.
Weird. The BIble actually says what we believe really DOES matter.
 
Old 10-17-2016, 05:01 PM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,483,918 times
Reputation: 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marakorpa View Post
Thank you for the varied opinions. Something as simple as the trinity????? you would think would only have one definition or interpretation.

Oh! What a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive...... Walter Scott must have been talking about the trinity, I am sure.
no, he was talking about what people do, not the trinity.

you assume we all understand equally. You assume we all play by the same rules.

The trinity, like all ideas, can be used to hunt down the truth to teach with it or kill it, and deceive others. Both can happen; both do happen. Good people sit around and watch it happen, well, actually we are at work, but thats another story.
 
Old 10-17-2016, 05:03 PM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,483,918 times
Reputation: 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Weird. The BIble actually says what we believe really DOES matter.
no, you don't get it viz, you never did.

I understand it has to be tho. Its why the rain will stop some day.
 
Old 10-18-2016, 04:52 AM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 21,861,394 times
Reputation: 2226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Thanks George. And I agree that we don't and can't understand the exact nature of God. How does the finite mind of man comprehend eternal and infinite God? I suspect that even in the eternal state we will never know all there is to know about God and that we will always be learning new things about Him and about His creation. But we can know what He has revealed about Himself in the Bible which is that while He is one, there are three Persons who are said to be God, and that they all had a hand in creation.

It's difficult to understand how those who say that Jesus was only a man can make that claim when it is clearly stated in the Scriptures that He is also God and that it was He who actually brought all things into existence. But people do have a talent for denying whatever they for whatever reason don't want to believe.

I guess I won't bother trying to put all the sand in the Chihuahuan Desert into my little bucket.
No...No, it is not clear...
 
Old 10-18-2016, 08:17 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,318,360 times
Reputation: 661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
No...No, it is not clear...


perhaps for the sake of clarity you might want to state what exactly (or as exactly as anyone can on such a "supernatural" subject that quite frankly---at least to me and for that matter even "experts" on the subject---rather transcends human experience or rational concepts). IMHO, the "Church" has always admitted the practical inadequacy of any human description of the nature of God but the Trinity seemed the best way to express what they believed is the relationship between "Father", "Son", and "Holy Spirit" WITHOUT ending up with THREE "gods" (tri-theism) OR some kind of divine avatars (modalism---somewhat similar to Hinduism) without departing from the monotheism as taught in the Old Testament .


in the peace of Christ.

Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 10-18-2016 at 08:43 AM..
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