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Old 11-29-2016, 09:58 AM
 
11,138 posts, read 11,198,532 times
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William Lane Craig has famously said "The most compelling evidence of the truth of Christianity to me is the overpowering witness of the Holy Spirit in my heart". Did you catch that: the most powerful evidence Craig can produce is an emotion that comes over him when he prays. You have to actually watch this to believe it. Advance to 1:42


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q78ahkiMtFk

The truth (and this has been proven by science) is that Craig is experiencing nothing more than a surge of brain opiates brought on by the powerful belief that the Holy Spirit is invading his body and causing him to be "slain in the Spirit".

Quote:
When all else fails for the theist, many decide that they can always fall back on the "inner witness to the holy spirit." This I think highlights what is at the core of religious/spiritual belief that there is at heart, primarily an emotional basis for belief in god or one particular religion and things like the "inner witness to the holy spirit" are really just manifestations of strong emotional triggers contextualized in a Christian environment.
Why The "Inner Witness To The Holy Spirit" Is Evidence Of Nothing

I had experienced this many times after praying when I was a Christian. I now know it was nothing more than "feel good" brain chemicals flooding my system fooling me into believing the Holy Spirit was overtaking me.

Mark 16:17-18 gives a list of amazing powers such as being able to drink poison and not being poisoned and taking up poisonous snakes and not having them kill you when they bite. Well, in the clip below the documentary filmmaker says he has witnessed over 100 Christians being bitten by poisonous snakes and dying. So much for Mark!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5O1RVWB8MQ

In truth there's not a single documented case of a Christian being able to defy the laws of nature and survive a lethal snakebite or drinking deadly poison and living. They all kill.

My question is "Where is the power of the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised would protect Christians"? The whole world is waiting for some evidence Mark 16:17-18 is true yet so far none has emerged.

The usual excuse-making by apologists is, "They were tempting the Holy Spirit and you shall not tempt the Lord your God" but this is just apologetic BS and smoke-screening to cover up a bald-faced failure of the Holy Spirit to protect those whom Jesus promised would be protected. So one of two possibilities is at play here: either Jesus was a false prophet and therefore not the Son of God or men wrote these words and attributed them to Jesus.

Pick your poison.
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Old 11-29-2016, 10:05 AM
 
Location: US
27,874 posts, read 14,965,933 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
William Lane Craig has famously said "The most compelling evidence of the truth of Christianity to me is the overpowering witness of the Holy Spirit in my heart". Did you catch that: the most powerful evidence Craig can produce is an emotion that comes over him when he prays. You have to actually watch this to believe it. Advance to 1:42


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q78ahkiMtFk

The truth (and this has been proven by science) is that Craig is experiencing nothing more than a surge of brain opiates brought on by the powerful belief that the Holy Spirit is invading his body and causing him to be "slain in the Spirit".

Why The "Inner Witness To The Holy Spirit" Is Evidence Of Nothing

I had experienced this many times after praying when I was a Christian. I now know it was nothing more than "feel good" brain chemicals flooding my system fooling me into believing the Holy Spirit was overtaking me.

Mark 16:17-18 gives a list of amazing powers such as being able to drink poison and not being poisoned and taking up poisonous snakes and not having them kill you when they bite. Well, in the clip below the documentary filmmaker says he has witnessed over 100 Christians being bitten by poisonous snakes and dying. So much for Mark!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5O1RVWB8MQ

In truth there's not a single documented case of a Christian being able to defy the laws of nature and survive a lethal snakebite or drinking deadly poison and living. They all kill.

My question is "Where is the power of the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised would protect Christians"? The whole world is waiting for some evidence Mark 16:17-18 is true yet so far none has emerged.

The usual excuse-making by apologists is, "They were tempting the Holy Spirit and you shall not tempt the Lord your God" but this is just apologetic BS and smoke-screening to cover up a bald-faced failure of the Holy Spirit to protect those whom Jesus promised would be protected. So one of two possibilities is at play here: either Jesus was a false prophet and therefore not the Son of God or men wrote these words and attributed them to Jesus.

Pick your poison.
You have an excellent point...
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Old 11-29-2016, 10:22 AM
 
21,612 posts, read 16,593,880 times
Reputation: 8569
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
William Lane Craig has famously said "The most compelling evidence of the truth of Christianity to me is the overpowering witness of the Holy Spirit in my heart". Did you catch that: the most powerful evidence Craig can produce is an emotion that comes over him when he prays. You have to actually watch this to believe it. Advance to 1:42


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q78ahkiMtFk

The truth (and this has been proven by science) is that Craig is experiencing nothing more than a surge of brain opiates brought on by the powerful belief that the Holy Spirit is invading his body and causing him to be "slain in the Spirit".

Why The "Inner Witness To The Holy Spirit" Is Evidence Of Nothing

I had experienced this many times after praying when I was a Christian. I now know it was nothing more than "feel good" brain chemicals flooding my system fooling me into believing the Holy Spirit was overtaking me.

Mark 16:17-18 gives a list of amazing powers such as being able to drink poison and not being poisoned and taking up poisonous snakes and not having them kill you when they bite. Well, in the clip below the documentary filmmaker says he has witnessed over 100 Christians being bitten by poisonous snakes and dying. So much for Mark!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5O1RVWB8MQ

In truth there's not a single documented case of a Christian being able to defy the laws of nature and survive a lethal snakebite or drinking deadly poison and living. They all kill.

My question is "Where is the power of the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised would protect Christians"? The whole world is waiting for some evidence Mark 16:17-18 is true yet so far none has emerged.

The usual excuse-making by apologists is, "They were tempting the Holy Spirit and you shall not tempt the Lord your God" but this is just apologetic BS and smoke-screening to cover up a bald-faced failure of the Holy Spirit to protect those whom Jesus promised would be protected. So one of two possibilities is at play here: either Jesus was a false prophet and therefore not the Son of God or men wrote these words and attributed them to Jesus.

Pick your poison.
First of all, it's widely recognized among scholars that Mark 16:9-20 isn't the original ending of Mark, but was a later addition. And you know this. Therefore you're purposely making an argument based on something you know Mark never even wrote.

Secondly, whether it's realistic or not, if the most compelling evidence of the truth of Christianity for Craig is the overpowering witness of the Holy Spirit in his heart," what is that to you or to anyone else, and who are you to mock him for it?
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Old 11-29-2016, 03:42 PM
 
11,138 posts, read 11,198,532 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
First of all, it's widely recognized among scholars that Mark 16:9-20 isn't the original ending of Mark, but was a later addition. And you know this. Therefore you're purposely making an argument based on something you know Mark never even wrote.

Secondly, whether it's realistic or not, if the most compelling evidence of the truth of Christianity for Craig is the overpowering witness of the Holy Spirit in his heart," what is that to you or to anyone else, and who are you to mock him for it?
I do know that Mark 16:9-20 was added, but that really is beside the point, isn't it? The point being that if the Bible is holy and infallible then the Holy Spirit permitted the words to be attributed to Jesus, therefore Jesus as good as said them, true?

If men added Mark 16:9-20 without the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit then the promises made in those verses should not be attributed to Jesus and therefore we have a problem with the Bible being infallible. Men will take up serpents but the Holy Spirit will NOT protect them and they will drink poison and the Holy Spirit will NOT save them, exactly as we are witnessing. Maybe a solution is that parts of the Bible are infallible and parts are uninspired and therefore fallible.
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Old 11-29-2016, 03:56 PM
 
21,612 posts, read 16,593,880 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I do know that Mark 16:9-20 was added, but that really is beside the point, isn't it? The point being that if the Bible is holy and infallible then the Holy Spirit permitted the words to be attributed to Jesus, therefore Jesus as good as said them, true?

If men added Mark 16:9-20 without the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit then the promises made in those verses should not be attributed to Jesus and therefore we have a problem with the Bible being infallible. Men will take up serpents but the Holy Spirit will NOT protect them and they will drink poison and the Holy Spirit will NOT save them, exactly as we are witnessing. Maybe a solution is that parts of the Bible are infallible and parts are uninspired and therefore fallible.

No, it's not beside the point. Most theologians recognize that the doctrines of infallibility and inspiration refer to the original autographs. Not to any of the manuscript copies.

The following is Article X of the Chicago Satement on Biblical Inerrancy which was produced at an international Summit Conference of evangelical leaders in 1978.
WE AFFIRM that inspiration, strictly speaking, applies only to the autographic text of Scripture, which in the providence of God can be ascertained from available manuscripts with great accuracy. We further affirm that copies and translations of Scripture are the Word of God to the extent that they faithfully represent the original.

WE DENY that any essential element of the Christian faith is affected by the absence of the autographs. We further deny that this absence renders the assertion of Biblical inerrancy invalid or irrelevant.

Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy
You're basing your argument on a false premise. The Holy Spirit inspired the New Testament writers. He did not inspire the various scribes who later copied the original autographs. What we have today is upwards to 99% faithful to the original autographs, but not completely. Mark 16:9-20 is one of the few of the larger variants. The vast majority of the estimated 400,000 or so variants (nobody really knows for sure how many there are) in the New Testament are small and insignificant and affect no point of doctrine of the Christian faith.
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Old 11-29-2016, 04:04 PM
 
Location: Olam Haba
619 posts, read 195,498 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I do know that Mark 16:9-20 was added, but that really is beside the point, isn't it? The point being that if the Bible is holy and infallible then the Holy Spirit permitted the words to be attributed to Jesus, therefore Jesus as good as said them, true?

If men added Mark 16:9-20 without the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit then the promises made in those verses should not be attributed to Jesus and therefore we have a problem with the Bible being infallible. Men will take up serpents but the Holy Spirit will NOT protect them and they will drink poison and the Holy Spirit will NOT save them, exactly as we are witnessing. Maybe a solution is that parts of the Bible are infallible and parts are uninspired and therefore fallible.
Yeah, the end of Mark was no doubt a later addition, but it doesn't really matter. The problem remains the same as always: believing that the scripture is speaking of physical things and reading it through the eyes and mind of a neanderthal. It's no different when it comes the Seraphim that bit the children of Israel in the desert. Seraphim are not literal physical serpents slithering on the ground biting people on the leg.
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Old 11-29-2016, 04:10 PM
 
5,124 posts, read 2,513,011 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
William Lane Craig has famously said "The most compelling evidence of the truth of Christianity to me is the overpowering witness of the Holy Spirit in my heart". Did you catch that: the most powerful evidence Craig can produce is an emotion that comes over him when he prays. You have to actually watch this to believe it. Advance to 1:42
The truth (and this has been proven by science) is that Craig is experiencing nothing more than a surge of brain opiates brought on by the powerful belief that the Holy Spirit is invading his body and causing him to be "slain in the Spirit".
I had experienced this many times after praying when I was a Christian. I now know it was nothing more than "feel good" brain chemicals flooding my system fooling me into believing the Holy Spirit was overtaking me.
Mark 16:17-18 gives a list of amazing powers such as being able to drink poison and not being poisoned and taking up poisonous snakes and not having them kill you when they bite. Well, in the clip below the documentary filmmaker says he has witnessed over 100 Christians being bitten by poisonous snakes and dying. So much for Mark!
In truth there's not a single documented case of a Christian being able to defy the laws of nature and survive a lethal snakebite or drinking deadly poison and living. They all kill.
My question is "Where is the power of the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised would protect Christians"? The whole world is waiting for some evidence Mark 16:17-18 is true yet so far none has emerged.
Yipes, thrillobyte, Lane Craig needs to know, remember and keep in mind that Mark 16 ends at verse 8.
Past verse 8 is KJV add ons
The style of writing changes after verse 8
There are No corresponding verses or passages as there is with the rest of Mark.
Even both Jerome and Eusebius believed Mark ended at Mark 16:8

God's spirit, of which we are to pray for - Luke 11:13 B, is to aid our spirituality. Fortify our spiritually.
- Ephesians 6:11-17
That is Not some emotional high as some think it should be.
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Old 11-29-2016, 05:36 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
14,624 posts, read 4,913,510 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
IMen will take up serpents but the Holy Spirit will NOT protect them and they will drink poison and the Holy Spirit will NOT save them, exactly as we are witnessing. Maybe a solution is that parts of the Bible are infallible and parts are uninspired and therefore fallible.

Serpents come to a person in the form of a spirit and they are always poisoning, what Jesus said was said for the truth of what comes to a person in the spirit, a spirit that has to be overcome and silenced.

Having said that, my opinion is that people who claim to have that same individual spirit of rain from Pentecost 2000 years ago is mistaken. They only assume they have the Holy spirit because they read so much about it, and somehow they think the promises are about them. The promises were revealed and confirmed in converts to Judaism, the religion of Pentecost. That individual first rain was promised and then recieved. The people that recieved that promise were not confused, they were not in doubt. They did not say,'' Maybe.''

Whatever they asked, it was granted and they were not a people under a false assumption, they actually had the power to lay hands on the deaf, the blind and even the dead.

How many Christians will walk up to a deaf or blind person KNOWING that God is going to heal?


There is not even one person in the entire world who can do what the first disciples did BECAUSE they couldn't possibly have the same spirit which was given on Pentecost.

A person who is making the claim of having the Holy Spirit of Pentecost is claiming that the disciples recieved power, and that power was handed down from person to person from the layings of hands, and that it has now come to them when this is impossible in my eyes.

But this isn't an opinion I have to prove, it is a fact of life and anyone who says different, anyone who claims to truly have the Holy spirit, let him stand up and say,'' Do not let it be said that there is no prophet in Israel, send the lepers, the blind and the lame to me, and I will have him bath in the Jordan and his flesh will be restored.''


Forgive me for being rude or insensitive, but I believe the beginning of obtaining an annointing is first by admitting that you don't already have one.

Christians trying to rationalise why they cannot do the works of the first disciples only leaves Jesus looking wrong because if this is the same great Holy Spirit that the folowers of Jesus recieved, what is so special about it?

You get hit by a Texas rattler and you better say your prayers quick, no, you are not going to lay hands on the dead at a funeral, so tell your crazy cousin to stop praying.
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Old 11-29-2016, 05:53 PM
 
11,138 posts, read 11,198,532 times
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
You have an excellent point...
Thank you, Richard. I'm glad someone here sees what I am driving at: people outside the charismatic movement of all this "indwelling of the Holy Spirit" business are looking for proof it is something more tangible than this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wZCifteHtc

To say, "I know the Holy Spirit is real because of the feelings of peace and love He brings to my heart" is totally wasted on non-Christians who get the same feeling watching "Love Story" on the late channel. "Feelings" are totally subjective and cannot be offered as evidence that a spiritual entity is real or that it carries with it a tangible power that everyone can see and witness.
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Old 11-29-2016, 06:07 PM
 
Location: Olam Haba
619 posts, read 195,498 times
Reputation: 36
To be honest, thrill, I also agree, (and I did watch the OP video, (and it was appalling)), but it just isn't cool to take a picture of someone and alter his eyes in a cheap paint program to make him look cross-eyed and put it on the front cover of the YouTube video, (imo).
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