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How can the Son call the Father, Father, unless that Person has the authority to be called the Father? Does Father indicate an authority over the Son or not?
Maybe because he was just a prophet of G-d and it was those later that turned him into a god...
Explain the NWT of Genesis 1:26-27 where God asks in the plural sense for the creation of man, but yet when God performed the act of creating man, He did so in the singular sense.
Bereisheet - Genesis - Chapter 1
26 And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."
Rashi's Commentary:
Let us make man: From here we learn the humility of the Holy One, blessed be He. Since man was created in the likeness of the angels, and they would envy him, He consulted them. And when He judges kings, He consults with His Heavenly household, for so we find regarding Ahab, that Micah said to him, (I Kings 22:19): “I saw the Lord seated on His throne, and all the host of heaven were standing by Him, on His right and on His left.” Now do “left” or “right” apply to Him ?! But rather, [the passage means that] these [angels] were standing on the right to defend, and these [angels] were standing on the left to prosecute. Likewise, (Dan. 4:14): “By the decree of the destructive angels is the matter, and by the word of the holy ones is the edict.” Here too, He took counsel with His heavenly household. He said to them, “Among the heavenly beings, there are some in My likeness. If there are none in My likeness among the earthly beings, there will be envy among the creatures of the Creation. ” - [from Tanchuma, Shemoth 18; Gen. Rabbah 8:11, 14:13]
Let us make man: Even though they [the angels] did not assist Him in His creation, and there is an opportunity for the heretics to rebel (to misconstrue the plural as a basis for their heresies), Scripture did not hesitate to teach proper conduct and the trait of humility, that a great person should consult with and receive permission from a smaller one. Had it been written: “I shall make man,” we would not have learned that He was speaking with His tribunal, but to Himself. And the refutation to the heretics is written alongside it [i. e., in the following verse:]“And God created (וַיִּבְרָא) ,” and it does not say,“and they created וַיִּבְרְאוּ.” - [from Gen. Rabbah 8:9]
in our image: in our form.
after our likeness: to understand and to discern.
and they shall rule over the fish: Heb. וְיִרְדּוּ This expression contains both the meaning of ruling and the meaning of subservience. If he merits, he rules over the beasts and over the cattle. If he does not merit, he becomes subservient to them, and the beast rules over him. — [from Gen. Rabbah 8:12]
27 And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Rashi's Commentary:
And God created man in His image: In the form that was made for him, for everything [else] was created with a command, whereas he [man] was created with the hands (of God), as it is written (Ps. 139:5): “and You placed Your hand upon me.” Man was made with a die, like a coin, which is made by means of a die, which is called coin in Old French. And so Scripture states (Job 38:14): “The die changes like clay.” - [from Letters of Rabbi Akiva , second version; Mid. Ps. 139:5; Sanh. 38a]
in the image of God He created him: It explains to you that the image that was prepared for him was the image of the likeness of his Creator. — [from B.B. 58a
male and female He created them: Yet further (2:21) Scripture states: “And He took one of his ribs, etc.” The Midrash Aggadah (Gen. Rabbah 8:1, Ber. 61a, Eruvin 18a) explains that He originally created him with two faces, and afterwards, He divided him. The simple meaning of the verse is that here Scripture informs you that they were both created on the sixth [day], but it does not explain to you how they were created, and it explains [that] to you elsewhere. — [from Baraitha of the Thirty Two Methods , Method 13]
I am not settled on the trinity. I think it is not something people need to have disputes about. I believe in God the Father. I believe he sent Jesus into the world and that Jesus was/is the Christ, the anointed one. I believe Jesus was filled with the full measure of the Holy Spirit. But I also know that Jesus says his Father is greater than himself and that he subjects himself and all things to the Father. Therefore, since it is not clear in scripture that God wants to be called a trinity, why insist on it?
I am not settled on the trinity. I think it is not something people need to have disputes about. I believe in God the Father. I believe he sent Jesus into the world and that Jesus was/is the Christ, the anointed one. I believe Jesus was filled with the full measure of the Holy Spirit. But I also know that Jesus says his Father is greater than himself and that he subjects himself and all things to the Father. Therefore, since it is not clear in scripture that God wants to be called a trinity, why insist on it?
The early church thought that trying to understand the relationship between God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit was an issue worth pursuing. And that's why various views concerning that relationship developed within the church in the early centuries. I personally want to know as much as I can about the nature of God, about who and what He is. I understand however that you may not consider the issue of the Trinity important. I just wanted to say the following for your consideration.
The issue is do the Scriptures paint a picture of God as a Triune Being, not by declaring in any one verse that God is in fact a triune Being, but by presenting the fact that while there is but one true God, yet there are three who are identified as God in the Scriptures? And the answer is yes, the Scriptures do present the concept of a Triune God. The word 'Trinity' is not found in the Bible, but the concept is.
The doctrine of the Trinity did not come about in spite of what the Bible says, but because of what the Bible says. God the Father of course, but Jesus is also called God and is shown to be the Person of the Godhead who actually did the act of creating all that has been created (John 1:1-3, Col. 1:16-17, Heb. 1:10-12). And the Holy Spirit is called God (Acts 5:3-4), and yet is distinguished from both the Father and from Jesus (Rom. 8:26-27, John 14:16-17; 16:12-15).
Not only did John and the writer of Hebrews state that Jesus is God, but Jesus Himself identified Himself as God.
When the high priest (Caiaphas) asked Jesus if He was the Son of God, Jesus replied that He was (Matt. 26:63-64; Mark 14:61-62). But Jesus then added the following statement.
Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, ''I am, and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.''
Jesus was quoting Daniel 7:13.
Daniel 7:13 ''I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the ancient of Days and was presented before Him.''
Jesus' favorite self designation for Himself was Son of Man. He took that from Daniel 7:13. But it was His statement that He would be seen coming with the clouds of heaven by which He claimed to be God.
You see, Ugarit was a neighboring nation to the north of Israel. In the Ugaritic religious literature the god Baal was identified as the cloud rider. He was the one who rode the clouds. The one who rode the clouds was a descriptive term applied to gods.
In a polemic against the Ugaritic god Baal, the Old Testament writers took the term ''the one who rides the clouds'' and applied it to Yah-weh.
For instance, Psalm 104:3 and Isaiah 19:1.
Psalm 104:3 He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters; He makes the clouds His chariot; He walks upon the wings of the wind;
Isaiah 19:1 The oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt; The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
The terminology is used for deity. In the Old Testament it is used of Yahweh. However, in Daniel 7:13 the Son of Man is said to be coming with the clouds of heaven. Daniel 7:13 is one of the Old Testament passages which gave rise to the belief within a strain of ancient Judaism of what is called ''two powers in heaven'' or two Yahweh's. It was declared a heresy in the second century A.D., apparently because the Jews didn't like the idea of Jesus being that second power.
When Jesus told Caiaphas that he would see the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven, he knew exactly what Jesus was claiming Himself to be and stated that Jesus had blasphemed and was deserving of death. He understood that Jesus had claimed to be God.
The belief that Jesus is God comes right out of the Old Testament.
Now, Jesus did say the Father is greater than Him. But Jesus was speaking from the standpoint of His humanity. He is both God and man as a comparison of John 1:1 with John 1:14 makes clear. And also, while in terms of His nature or essence Jesus is everything that the Father is, there is nevertheless an authority structure within the Godhead.
Anyway, I just thought I would mention the above. If you wish to, give it some consideration.
If you, or anyone else is interested, the two powers in heaven view within Judaism is spoken of by Bart Ehrman in this short lecture.
26 And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."
Rashi's Commentary:
Let us make man: From here we learn the humility of the Holy One, blessed be He. Since man was created in the likeness of the angels, and they would envy him, He consulted them. And when He judges kings, He consults with His Heavenly household, for so we find regarding Ahab, that Micah said to him, (I Kings 22:19): “I saw the Lord seated on His throne, and all the host of heaven were standing by Him, on His right and on His left.” Now do “left” or “right” apply to Him ?! But rather, [the passage means that] these [angels] were standing on the right to defend, and these [angels] were standing on the left to prosecute. Likewise, (Dan. 4:14): “By the decree of the destructive angels is the matter, and by the word of the holy ones is the edict.” Here too, He took counsel with His heavenly household. He said to them, “Among the heavenly beings, there are some in My likeness. If there are none in My likeness among the earthly beings, there will be envy among the creatures of the Creation. ” - [from Tanchuma, Shemoth 18; Gen. Rabbah 8:11, 14:13]
Let us make man: Even though they [the angels] did not assist Him in His creation, and there is an opportunity for the heretics to rebel (to misconstrue the plural as a basis for their heresies), Scripture did not hesitate to teach proper conduct and the trait of humility, that a great person should consult with and receive permission from a smaller one. Had it been written: “I shall make man,” we would not have learned that He was speaking with His tribunal, but to Himself. And the refutation to the heretics is written alongside it [i. e., in the following verse:]“And God created (וַיִּבְרָא) ,” and it does not say,“and they created וַיִּבְרְאוּ.” - [from Gen. Rabbah 8:9]
in our image: in our form.
after our likeness: to understand and to discern.
and they shall rule over the fish: Heb. וְיִרְדּוּ This expression contains both the meaning of ruling and the meaning of subservience. If he merits, he rules over the beasts and over the cattle. If he does not merit, he becomes subservient to them, and the beast rules over him. — [from Gen. Rabbah 8:12]
27 And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Rashi's Commentary:
And God created man in His image: In the form that was made for him, for everything [else] was created with a command, whereas he [man] was created with the hands (of God), as it is written (Ps. 139:5): “and You placed Your hand upon me.” Man was made with a die, like a coin, which is made by means of a die, which is called coin in Old French. And so Scripture states (Job 38:14): “The die changes like clay.” - [from Letters of Rabbi Akiva , second version; Mid. Ps. 139:5; Sanh. 38a]
in the image of God He created him: It explains to you that the image that was prepared for him was the image of the likeness of his Creator. — [from B.B. 58a
male and female He created them: Yet further (2:21) Scripture states: “And He took one of his ribs, etc.” The Midrash Aggadah (Gen. Rabbah 8:1, Ber. 61a, Eruvin 18a) explains that He originally created him with two faces, and afterwards, He divided him. The simple meaning of the verse is that here Scripture informs you that they were both created on the sixth [day], but it does not explain to you how they were created, and it explains [that] to you elsewhere. — [from Baraitha of the Thirty Two Methods , Method 13]
Thanks for sharing in an attempt to explain it, but you should apply your skepticism here. Granted, you need other scripture to see that God did not consult with any angel in creating man, and so Who was He talking to if only the One God created man? There has to be more than One Person in that Godhead.
Isaiah 40:10 Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.12 Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him?14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Now think about it; If God said let us make man in our image to the angels; that is His command to the angels to assists Him, but verse 27 says God did the creation of man all by Himself. Can God be denied? When He speaks, does He not make it so by His word? So Who was He talking to if God created man Himself? We note that God in Hebrew is plural and so we are left with the only option to ponder what the Jews refuse to ponder that God is a Triune God.
So what do the Jews say about elohiym in how that was used for reference to their One God?
Can it be that something is purposefully being overlooked in translation by the Jews and others because they think the implications of the Triune God is blasphemous as being applied towards their One God so that they will not have to believe in Jesus Christ as being of the One God?
From Matthew 28:19 Jesus said before His Ascension into heaven ....``Go you there for , and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father , and the Son , and of the Holy Spirit ``................. As here it is the actual trinity in the bible , as many denier will confess that the trinity is not in the bible <snip>
RESPONSE:
1. We have no copies of the New Testament dating earlier than 325 AD. However, the early Church historian Eusebius had earlier copies which he quoted in some of his writings. But his Matt 28:19 omits the passage about baptism in the name of the Trinity.
2. If one reads the New Testament there are five explicit instances of baptism being administered. Four are in Acts of the Apostles. All are in the name of Jesus alone, never a Trinity.
3. When do we first see any reference to a Trinity in the writings of the early Church Fathers?
1. We have no copies of the New Testament dating earlier than 325 AD. However, the early Church historian Eusebius had earlier copies which he quoted in some of his writings. But his Matt 28:19 omits the passage about baptism in the name of the Trinity.
2. If one reads the New Testament there are five explicit instances of baptism being administered. Four are in Acts of the Apostles. All are in the name of Jesus alone, never a Trinity.
3. When do we first see any reference to a Trinity in the writings of the early Church Fathers?
Baptizing them in the name ( not names ) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost is the name of Jesus.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
The name of God to call upon to be saved is Jesus, but that does not go with denying the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost as being of the One God; aka the Triune God.
The focus on worship and fellowship is the Son as we are to be His disciples in seeking His glory and by Him, the glory of God the Father as the Holy Spirit Whom is God is leading us to do.
[quote=PoorInSpirit;46734828]Baptizing them in the name ( not names ) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost is the name of Jesus.
RESPONSE: No. The name of Jesus is the name of Jesus. It isn't the name of three persons.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Quote:
The name of God to call upon to be saved is Jesus, but that does not go with denying the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost as being of the One God; aka the Triune God.
RESPONSE: What we are looking for is New Testament evidence of the existence of a Trinity. That's not denying what isn't there.
Quote:
The focus on worship and fellowship is the Son as we are to be His disciples in seeking His glory and by Him, the glory of God the Father as the Holy Spirit Whom is God is leading us to do.
.
RESPONSE: No. The focus of worship is on God. "Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One."
Explain the NWT of Genesis 1:26-27 where God asks in the plural sense for the creation of man, but yet when God performed the act of creating man, He did so in the singular sense.
If errors in translation have been corrected, then explain the plurality of the One God in verse 26 when asking to create man in their image?
You cannot say that anyone else was involved, because only God created man in verse 27.
So Who was God talking to in verse 26 in creating man in their image if only God created man in His image?
Since man has to have two or three witnesses to establish a word or a testimony, does that not mirror what the Triune God did in creation in establishing the creation of man?
Reality = Let us( YHWH(Jehovah) and his master worker-prov 8 = Jesus.) make man in our image.
Only the one being God created things through = his master worker.
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Baptism in the name of Jesus alone
