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If you judge the rich and the employers as all honest, just because they are rich or employers, then you are judging by a scale not according to His words.
Which was not what I was doing since I gave you 2 examples of how a rich believer should behave and how they should not behave.
You were the one judging the rich as guilty by association for being rich per the OP by using James words to condemn the rich believers for being rich still by not having given everything to the poor.
If you raise the standard on the rich, then how do you place that standard on yourself? I am sure there are poorer people than you, and so are you going to give all to the poor in setting the example to the rich christians?
No. So why ask those believers that have more than you to give everything to the poor and thus be poorer than the poor if you are not going to do it either?
If we look to Jesus's words to the rich man instead of to James, you could possibly make a case for it, but in context of what Jesus was saying and in the format for the purpose of giving up everything he had to the poor in following Jesus as being able to save oneself by the deeds of the law, no man could do it.
Thus Jesus words that man cannot redeem himself nor save himself by the deeds of the law shows why it is on Jesus Christ for with God, all things are possible because it is by faith in Jesus Christ we are saved.
So even then, Jesus was not asking any man to give up everything he has to the poor in following Him when the rich man had asked Him in the context of being able to save himself by the deeds of the law.
What christians are to consider is that we are to lean on Jesus Christ not to love this life so we can leave this life when the Bridegroom comes because the lap of luxury and the well to do can be a snare that people would love this life, even poor people, more than to leave it when Jesus appears above.
Luke 14:15-24 testifies that believers will be excusing themselves from the King's supper for the cares of this life.
So there is nothing wrong if a believer is rich; what is a concern is when a believer loves to be rich that he or she may not want to leave it. They should pray to Jesus for help and discernment on how to love Him more than their life on earth so He will help them to be ready to go when the Bridegroom comes.
Which was not what I was doing since I gave you 2 examples of how a rich believer should behave and how they should not behave.
You were the one judging the rich as guilty by association for being rich per the OP by using James words to condemn the rich believers for being rich still by not having given everything to the poor.
If you raise the standard on the rich, then how do you place that standard on yourself? I am sure there are poorer people than you, and so are you going to give all to the poor in setting the example to the rich christians?
No. So why ask those believers that have more than you to give everything to the poor and thus be poorer than the poor if you are not going to do it either?
If we look to Jesus's words to the rich man instead of to James, you could possibly make a case for it, but in context of what Jesus was saying and in the format for the purpose of giving up everything he had to the poor in following Jesus as being able to save oneself by the deeds of the law, no man could do it.
Thus Jesus words that man cannot redeem himself nor save himself by the deeds of the law shows why it is on Jesus Christ for with God, all things are possible because it is by faith in Jesus Christ we are saved.
So even then, Jesus was not asking any man to give up everything he has to the poor in following Him when the rich man had asked Him in the context of being able to save himself by the deeds of the law.
What christians are to consider is that we are to lean on Jesus Christ not to love this life so we can leave this life when the Bridegroom comes because the lap of luxury and the well to do can be a snare that people would love this life, even poor people, more than to leave it when Jesus appears above.
Luke 14:15-24 testifies that believers will be excusing themselves from the King's supper for the cares of this life.
So there is nothing wrong if a believer is rich; what is a concern is when a believer loves to be rich that he or she may not want to leave it. They should pray to Jesus for help and discernment on how to love Him more than their life on earth so He will help them to be ready to go when the Bridegroom comes.
Again, if one believes in the PROSPERITY GOSPEL, then chase after that dollar an support the wealthy..after all it will be the rich who do good by the poor, hungry and oppressed...
Again, if one believes in the PROSPERITY GOSPEL, then chase after that dollar an support the wealthy..after all it will be the rich who do good by the poor, hungry and oppressed...
Isn't it the fault of the poor for being poor??
Follow your Je$u$ and I will follow mine..
You said nothing about the PROSPERITY GOSPEL in your OP.
And verse 53 in your OP can be read as the Lord giving the poor, spiritual things while sending the rich away empty. God was not talking about the things of this world that perishes as giving that to the poor because the rich are still rich when they were sent away with nothing.
As for the PROSPERITY GOSPEL, you are using the wrong reference to combat that garbage.
1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
The point of your James's reference was not to treat the rich better than how you treat the poor. No favoritism. In the same voice, you are not to treat the poor better than how you treat the rich. Granted, you are at liberty to help the poor, especially in their immediate needs church wise, but as far as doling out dollars street wise, you use your own discretion.
More often times than not, believers do not spend the time in buying a meal and coming back to that poor person on the street so that they would not use the money for buying alcohol or drugs. That's helping the poor in need. Just doling out dollars because you do not have time for it, is hardly helping the poor in need.
Some black guy was asking for money in the mall on a regular basis, playing on being a relative to the Gibb's family that was known in the area while looking poor. I had been giving him money on several occasions. Then one day, he is walking out of the mall with shopping bags and had asked me for gas money, because he was almost out of gas. I said that I follow him in his car and pay for the gas at the gas station. He got mad and demanded to give him the money, claiming pride and all that. I told him that was the only way I would help him. He walked away with his shopping bags. I continued into the mall, knowing full well I had been had by that black guy as every patron of the mall had been taken.
And my oldest brother and my folks are friends with the Gibbs' family and Guy Gibbs had mentioned a panhandler going around asking for money by claiming to be a relative of the Gibbs family to say he wishes he could get that guy, because he wasn't a relative.
So is the poor you meet, really poor? I have to wonder if anybody else I had helped was really poor. Are there not outreach ministries, places and churches to get groceries from, homeless shelters, and government assistance available in my area? Yes. If the poor will not go there for their immediate needs, then give at your discretion, but if they are going to be elusive in preventing you from making sure they get what they really need, and you still want to give, give to one of the local charities in town then. Just walk away from that con person, and pray for his soul because even the poor can be covetous.
You said nothing about the PROSPERITY GOSPEL in your OP.
And verse 53 in your OP can be read as the Lord giving the poor, spiritual things while sending the rich away empty. God was not talking about the things of this world that perishes as giving that to the poor because the rich are still rich when they were sent away with nothing.
As for the PROSPERITY GOSPEL, you are using the wrong reference to combat that garbage.
1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
The point of your James's reference was not to treat the rich better than how you treat the poor. No favoritism. In the same voice, you are not to treat the poor better than how you treat the rich. Granted, you are at liberty to help the poor, especially in their immediate needs church wise, but as far as doling out dollars street wise, you use your own discretion.
More often times than not, believers do not spend the time in buying a meal and coming back to that poor person on the street so that they would not use the money for buying alcohol or drugs. That's helping the poor in need. Just doling out dollars because you do not have time for it, is hardly helping the poor in need.
Some black guy was asking for money in the mall on a regular basis, playing on being a relative to the Gibb's family that was known in the area while looking poor. I had been giving him money on several occasions. Then one day, he is walking out of the mall with shopping bags and had asked me for gas money, because he was almost out of gas. I said that I follow him in his car and pay for the gas at the gas station. He got mad and demanded to give him the money, claiming pride and all that. I told him that was the only way I would help him. He walked away with his shopping bags. I continued into the mall, knowing full well I had been had by that black guy as every patron of the mall had been taken.
And my oldest brother and my folks are friends with the Gibbs' family and Guy Gibbs had mentioned a panhandler going around asking for money by claiming to be a relative of the Gibbs family to say he wishes he could get that guy, because he wasn't a relative.
So is the poor you meet, really poor? I have to wonder if anybody else I had helped was really poor. Are there not outreach ministries, places and churches to get groceries from, homeless shelters, and government assistance available in my area? Yes. If the poor will not go there for their immediate needs, then give at your discretion, but if they are going to be elusive in preventing you from making sure they get what they really need, and you still want to give, give to one of the local charities in town then. Just walk away from that con person, and pray for his soul because even the poor can be covetous.
So when one approached Jesus and asked for food, did Jesus follow him home and check his freezer? Did Jesus verify that the man was hungry? Maybe the guy had a sandwich 15 minutes earlier?And why on earth does this guy's skin color matter?????
I never said ANYTHING about judging the rich either, but that did not prevent you from issuing the decree that I had nothing but contempt for those who typically make their wealth off the backs of others.
I understand if you want to justify the rich (perhaps you too fall into that area?) and make them feel part of the family.
But if I may, allow me to use evangelical fuzzy logic...
Evangelicals cling to the words of the tratior Paul and say unequivocally WOMEN CANNOT serve in positions of TEACHER or MINISTER in the church--to further support this fallacy, they point out that Jesus had NO women as disciples--even though Jesus NEVER spoke to this one way or the other..
Ergo, since Jesus NEVER had any RICH or WEALTH disciples, it means Jesus is teaching riches and wealth is an abomination to His Father and people of wealth are to be avoided like the plague they bring upon the land--and Jesus even spoke out against RICHES and WEALTH on many occasions (at least 10 times more than he spoke against women leading the church).
So as you defend riches and wealth as being a godly blessing (will there be riches and wealth in heaven? if not why not? and are we not to pray that what is done in heaven be done on earth?) it appears you have the Prosperity Gospel bug and have a new Je$u$ to serve..
Are the poor I meet really poor? THAT IS NOT FOR ME TO DETERMINE. I DO NOT GET TO DECIDE WHO IS DESERVING OF MY HELP AND WHO IS NOT--I only get to decide IF I help them or not...there is NO OBLIGATION to help if I am not in a position to render help.
So when one approached Jesus and asked for food, did Jesus follow him home and check his freezer? Did Jesus verify that the man was hungry? Maybe the guy had a sandwich 15 minutes earlier?And why on earth does this guy's skin color matter?????
It doesn't, but if the incident I was citing involved a white person, I would say the same thing in the telling of that event.
Now for the pink sarcastic statement of your reply above....
No, I do not go to his home and check his freezer first before buying him anything; I'd would pay for his food and give that food to him or her. If they reject the food that they claim that they need money to pay for, but just want the money, then I do not believe that poor person for what he or she claims that they need the money for.
I do not care to give money to poor people that may be using it for drugs or alcohol. If I really care about that person, I buy the things that he needs; or forget it.
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I never said ANYTHING about judging the rich either, but that did not prevent you from issuing the decree that I had nothing but contempt for those who typically make their wealth off the backs of others.
You are allowed to have contempt towards those that defraud their workers of their rightful wages, but you are to follow Jesus in allowing yourself to be defrauded as per the instructions in James 5:1-11; If you note in that reading, unless the covetous rich repents, they run the risk of being left behind at the pre trib rapture event, because their love of money will tempt them to stay behind. They either love Jesus more than money to live that way now, or they will find themselves unable to leave.
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I understand if you want to justify the rich (perhaps you too fall into that area?) and make them feel part of the family.
But if I may, allow me to use evangelical fuzzy logic...
The Lord has provided for me with an income below the poverty level & I am staying with my folks. I am content; and yet I am rich in one sense even if my provision does not go above the poverty level.
There is no justification for the rich that loves money more than God.
There is justification for the rich that loves God more than money in that whatever they do to the least of the brethren, they have done it to Jesus... and mayhap even angels.
Hebrews 13:1Let brotherly love continue.2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
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Evangelicals cling to the words of the tratior Paul and say unequivocally WOMEN CANNOT serve in positions of TEACHER or MINISTER in the church--to further support this fallacy, they point out that Jesus had NO women as disciples--even though Jesus NEVER spoke to this one way or the other..
There you go. Not asking Jesus why Paul said what he had said. You can't pick and choose in whatever modern Bible you are using just because you do not like what it says. Either you ask Him why or don't.
Hint: Christ is the head of the church as man is to be the head of the wife. For all to be submissive to Him, the woman has to be submissive to the man as man is submissive to Christ; thereby the woman is being submissive to Christ in that way.
Man was created first & heard the word of God directly from God; the woman heard the word of God through the man and it was then that the serpent tempted Eve to doubt God's words, and the man was tempted by the woman to doubt God's words and then the fall. The curse was set from the beginning that man would rule over the woman, therefore woman are to be silent in the church as men are to be led by Christ to teach and to minister. Women can ask the men at home any questions and God uses the women for outreach ministry. Indeed, men & women were missionaries in bringing new believers into the church; it was not the pastor's job as church attendees behave today.
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Ergo, since Jesus NEVER had any RICH or WEALTH disciples, it means Jesus is teaching riches and wealth is an abomination to His Father and people of wealth are to be avoided like the plague they bring upon the land--and Jesus even spoke out against RICHES and WEALTH on many occasions (at least 10 times more than he spoke against women leading the church).
How easy would it be for Jesus to plainly say that, but He didn't. The only time He had said that when a rich young ruler was bragging about keeping the law in earning eternal life. Then Jesus said give up everything he had to the poor and follow Him. Then the rich young ruler went away. Then Jesus said it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven; to wit ... His disciples said incredulously, "Then who can be saved?" Would that make you think that His disciples that said that were rich? But no. Jesus said in regards to the law, what is impossible with men, is possible with God. That was Jesus attempt to lift the eyes of His disciples to God in being their Saviour in bringing them into Heaven.
Once again, you are going back on your word in this very reply about what your OP is about as you are once again condemning the rich for having riches. You insinuate that because Paul & James acknowledges that there are such a saved people as rich believers, you condemn the words of Paul & James.
Jesus never condemned the rich for having wealth. Jesus condemned the love of money instead.
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So as you defend riches and wealth as being a godly blessing (will there be riches and wealth in heaven? if not why not? and are we not to pray that what is done in heaven be done on earth?) it appears you have the Prosperity Gospel bug and have a new Je$u$ to serve..
Are the poor I meet really poor? THAT IS NOT FOR ME TO DETERMINE. I DO NOT GET TO DECIDE WHO IS DESERVING OF MY HELP AND WHO IS NOT--I only get to decide IF I help them or not...there is NO OBLIGATION to help if I am not in a position to render help.
I am against the PROSPERITY GOSPEL. I do not teach that gain is godliness.
What is your message?
Are you condemning the wealthy because they have wealth or are you NOT condemning the rich?
If the rich gave everything he had to the poor; what do you think the poor will do with those riches when you are condemning having any wealth at all?
So let everybody burn all their wealth so that we are all poor and destitute because having anything at all makes one richer than the other guy; and thus an abomination to the Lord. Is that your message?
It is not having things that is evil; it is loving things more than God that is evil.
And we are to have love for one another, but the poor we will always have, but God takes care of them.
I trust God to help me give to the poor that really needs help just as I trust God to not enable the poor that do not want help but to continue on their path of self destruction.
It is amazing when family members are known drug addicts when asking for money, but if you get wise enough to actually meet their needs instead of giving them money, they tell you to mind your own business. Funny how they cannot do their business without getting into your business to have you give them money. When someone says that for what they need money for "Mind your own business", then you are free to tell them, "It is my business not to give you my money. So leave and mind your own business then, because I am staying out of your business of self destructing yourself. Good bye. You can come back here when you are done with your business of self destruction, but it is my business not to give you money but what you actually need. You do not like it, then stay out of my business."
Proverbs 112:4 Unto the upright there ariseth light in the darkness: he is gracious, and full of compassion, and righteous.5 A good man sheweth favour, and lendeth: he will guide his affairs with discretion.6 Surely he shall not be moved for ever: the righteous shall be in everlasting remembrance.
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