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Sparrow, I guess it comes down to this. Of course I believe that God can, does and will use suffering for good. "All things work together for good..." But, I don't believe suffering or experiencing darkness was necessary for us not to remain "ignorant" of the Light, nor to grow in our understanding of the Light, nor to give us a deeper appreciation for the Light, and it seems you do. I think we may be at an impasse?
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Originally Posted by .sparrow.
I had to jump in to say that NO. That is not what I am saying.
I think with what I posted, you are confusing actions for knowledge. I never said anything about DOING EVIL in order to understand good.
However when people DO act out of non-love, LOVE'S imprint on our soul/spirit/being is that much more MAGNIFIED. Which is a good thing. Pleroo, This is how I see LOVE OVERCOMING. This is how I see it's POWER. That even when the darkness tries to invade, LOVE can ultimately DESTROY the darkness by becoming MAGNIFIED and it's power SHOWN to an even greater extent.
Remember, there is no where too far into the darkness that any of us can venture, that Love's hand won't extend further and bring us back.
I believe that is a fact of life that we have to come to terms with that this world in which we find ourselves, darkness exists among the light. Some say God CREATES the darkness, but I disagree with that idea. I do however see how darkness is created like a vacuum where light is pushed away. Darkness is what rushes in. Turn off a light, darkness is "created" in that sense. There is no darkness in God. The only time darkness appears is when we turn our backs on God (love), push God away. We are given that freedom to do so. Can you wrap your child in bubble wrap and hold his hand 24/7? You can't. At some point you have to let go and allow them to learn for theirselves and it is painful, but it is necessary, unless you want a sheltered child who only has a very shallow understanding of the world around him.
The darkness does not HAVE to exist but God understands LOVE and understands what LOVE is NOT, and I believe that yes, HE wants his children to have that same knowledge.
Again, he is NOT darkness. He is only LIGHT. The darkness is created when human beings turn AWAY from the light, turn away from Love. We are in a realm where this possibility exists. This realm is temporary. This realm is creating something FOR us. It is creating a KNOWING, A KNOWLEDGE that will remain STEADFAST for ETERNITY.
I think some people only want to see light and love... but there is an alternative and we need to understand this. Focus on light and love, yes.... but we need to grow up and mature, not remain as ignorant children. We need to understand the POWER of love, and the consequences, the very GRAVE consequences of non-love.
Sparrow, I guess it comes down to this. Of course I believe that God can, does and will use suffering for good. "All things work together for good..." But, I don't believe suffering or experiencing darkness was necessary for us not to remain "ignorant" of the Light, nor to grow in our understanding of the Light, nor to give us a deeper appreciation for the Light, and it seems you do. I think we may be at an impasse?
I agree Pleroo, If we have the ability to know what darkness is then we have the ability to know what good is too. There is something within all of us that know's and understands beauty, good, love and harmony without having to see the opposites of them to know them.
I will respect your unwillingness to use the fruit story to elucidate the central point of the metaphor. But what you just said here contradicts yourself. If it IS the consciousness of God within us, (and it IS) then that IS God telling us not to do this or that.
I'm sure you understand that I was saying that God did not literally speak to a literal Adam about a literal tree or anything else. Collectively and singly, humanity has had to choose to either ignore or cultivate our connection to God's consciousness/our conscience within us.
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Let's see if I can't make it clearer. Teaching, at the very basic level, requires experiencing more than explanation. Words have no meaning without some base to relate them to. If you sit down and discuss all the ramifications of touching fire with your toddler, you are wasting your time. An intellect without experience cannot be taught by talking. There are certain basics in life that must be experienced.
Once your toddler touches something painfully hot, he will learn what the words "hot" and "burn" mean. Thereafter, when you tell him not to touch the end of a cigarette because it is hot and will burn him, he can relate what you have told him to his basic experience and learn about cigarettes burning without experiencing it. Let's face it, you wouldn't want your child to learn about hot and burn by touching the red-hot electric burner on your stove and receiving third-degree burns! On the other hand, your child must learn consequences in some fashion. All of parenthood consists of orchestrating and controlling the experiences of our children so that they learn the basics in the safest and least harmful ways.
Somehow our species' mere seed of a soul, their minute infant consciousness, had to become aware of the basic process to achieve eternal life. You don't try to teach calculus to a toddler. You must start with very basic concepts and build upon them. First, this soul had to learn that there was something to achieve. Then it had to be given a rudimentary idea of how to achieve it.
Since the process for achieving our purpose consists of controlling our animal nature and eliminating certain destructive responses, this basic idea of selective satisfaction of our internal desires had to be conveyed to the infant soul. Left on its own in its animal body, it wouldn't have the faintest idea that there was any need to differentiate between good and bad behavior. To an animal, all responses to its inner drives are "good."
Without teaching and a conceptual referent, this infant soul would have learned this erroneous concept from its animal nature, and continued to react without censure and control. In fact, it would devote itself to perfecting means of satisfying all of its animal drives. It would become a truly superior animal. It would kill more efficiently, hate more efficiently, be greedier, be more vengeful, create orgies and debaucheries to increase sexual satisfaction, and so on. Seem familiar?
"Achieve eternal life"? I'm not sure what you mean by that.
Look, I agree we needed/need to grow up and mature, singly and collectively. My point has always only been that it is not necessary for us to do "dark" things nor have others do "dark" things to us, in order to do so. That's the antithesis of maturity and growth. Experiencing God is how we grow and mature. That we are doing so in the midst of darkness doesn't mean that the darkness is what is maturing us.
Sparrow, I guess it comes down to this. Of course I believe that God can, does and will use suffering for good. "All things work together for good..." But, I don't believe suffering or experiencing darkness was necessary for us not to remain "ignorant" of the Light, nor to grow in our understanding of the Light, nor to give us a deeper appreciation for the Light, and it seems you do. I think we may be at an impasse?
Hey Pleroo, Yeah I think we probably are at an impasse...
For me, it seems God/Love would never allow this realm to even be in existence if it weren't for a very good reason. And that very good reason that I have personally come to believe makes perfect sense to me. I totally understand those not understanding my conclusion, though. We all have different paths to walk.
I will respect your unwillingness to use the fruit story to elucidate the central point of the metaphor. But what you just said here contradicts yourself. If it IS the consciousness of God within us, (and it IS) then that IS God telling us not to do this or that.Let's see if I can't make it clearer. Teaching, at the very basic level, requires experiencing more than explanation. Words have no meaning without some base to relate them to. If you sit down and discuss all the ramifications of touching fire with your toddler, you are wasting your time. An intellect without experience cannot be taught by talking. There are certain basics in life that must be experienced.
Once your toddler touches something painfully hot, he will learn what the words "hot" and "burn" mean. Thereafter, when you tell him not to touch the end of a cigarette because it is hot and will burn him, he can relate what you have told him to his basic experience and learn about cigarettes burning without experiencing it. Let's face it, you wouldn't want your child to learn about hot and burn by touching the red-hot electric burner on your stove and receiving third-degree burns! On the other hand, your child must learn consequences in some fashion. All of parenthood consists of orchestrating and controlling the experiences of our children so that they learn the basics in the safest and least harmful ways.
Somehow our species' mere seed of a soul, their minute infant consciousness, had to become aware of the basic process to achieve eternal life. You don't try to teach calculus to a toddler. You must start with very basic concepts and build upon them. First, this soul had to learn that there was something to achieve. Then it had to be given a rudimentary idea of how to achieve it.
Since the process for achieving our purpose consists of controlling our animal nature and eliminating certain destructive responses, this basic idea of selective satisfaction of our internal desires had to be conveyed to the infant soul. Left on its own in its animal body, it wouldn't have the faintest idea that there was any need to differentiate between good and bad behavior. To an animal, all responses to its inner drives are "good."
Without teaching and a conceptual referent, this infant soul would have learned this erroneous concept from its animal nature, and continued to react without censure and control. In fact, it would devote itself to perfecting means of satisfying all of its animal drives. It would become a truly superior animal. It would kill more efficiently, hate more efficiently, be greedier, be more vengeful, create orgies and debaucheries to increase sexual satisfaction, and so on. Seem familiar?
Yes. I agree with all you've said, here Mystic.
Another thing that may help to explain my personal view:
We (ALL of creation) need non-love to be exposed for WHAT it is. Creation MUST understand FULLY.
So that it can be finally and ETERNALLY slapped with a huge label: "DISCARDED"
Hey Pleroo, Yeah I think we probably are at an impasse...
For me, it seems God/Love would never allow this realm to even be in existence if it weren't for a very good reason. And that very good reason that I have personally come to believe makes perfect sense to me. I totally understand those not understanding my conclusion, though. We all have different paths to walk.
Peace,
sparrow
Ditto. I'm always so happy when you are posting, regardless of any disagreement we may have.
Experiencing God is how we grow and mature. That we are doing so in the midst of darkness doesn't mean that the darkness is what is maturing us.
Very true because Kingdom living is basically living out of its resources(love, joy,peace and harmony)and doing so we expand and the darkness(the kingdom of this world) of this world we live in shrinks.
Ditto. I'm always so happy when you are posting, regardless of any disagreement we may have.
Thank you Pleroo.
I feel the same when I see you posting.
You always really try to understand another person's perspective and have a good conversation and I think a lot of people would agree with me on that.
I will respect your unwillingness to use the fruit story to elucidate the central point of the metaphor. But what you just said here contradicts yourself. If it IS the consciousness of God within us, (and it IS) then that IS God telling us not to do this or that.Let's see if I can't make it clearer. Teaching, at the very basic level, requires experiencing more than explanation. Words have no meaning without some base to relate them to. If you sit down and discuss all the ramifications of touching fire with your toddler, you are wasting your time. An intellect without experience cannot be taught by talking. There are certain basics in life that must be experienced.
Once your toddler touches something painfully hot, he will learn what the words "hot" and "burn" mean. Thereafter, when you tell him not to touch the end of a cigarette because it is hot and will burn him, he can relate what you have told him to his basic experience and learn about cigarettes burning without experiencing it. Let's face it, you wouldn't want your child to learn about hot and burn by touching the red-hot electric burner on your stove and receiving third-degree burns! On the other hand, your child must learn consequences in some fashion. All of parenthood consists of orchestrating and controlling the experiences of our children so that they learn the basics in the safest and least harmful ways.
Somehow our species' mere seed of a soul, their minute infant consciousness, had to become aware of the basic process to achieve eternal life. You don't try to teach calculus to a toddler. You must start with very basic concepts and build upon them. First, this soul had to learn that there was something to achieve. Then it had to be given a rudimentary idea of how to achieve it.
Since the process for achieving our purpose consists of controlling our animal nature and eliminating certain destructive responses, this basic idea of selective satisfaction of our internal desires had to be conveyed to the infant soul. Left on its own in its animal body, it wouldn't have the faintest idea that there was any need to differentiate between good and bad behavior. To an animal, all responses to its inner drives are "good."
Without teaching and a conceptual referent, this infant soul would have learned this erroneous concept from its animal nature, and continued to react without censure and control. In fact, it would devote itself to perfecting means of satisfying all of its animal drives. It would become a truly superior animal. It would kill more efficiently, hate more efficiently, be greedier, be more vengeful, create orgies and debaucheries to increase sexual satisfaction, and so on. Seem familiar?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
I'm sure you understand that I was saying that God did not literally speak to a literal Adam about a literal tree or anything else. Collectively and singly, humanity has had to choose to either ignore or cultivate our connection to God's consciousness/our conscience within us.
Yes, I do. I just wanted to point out that God IS talking to us today within our consciousness. Regrettably, not everyone listens.
Quote:
"Achieve eternal life"? I'm not sure what you mean by that.
We are spiritual pregnancy and our goal is to achieve sufficient development and spiritual maturity to be born again as Spirit upon our death. Controlling our baser instincts out of love is how we nourish and mature our embryo Spirit.That is how we achieve eternal life.
Quote:
Look, I agree we needed/need to grow up and mature, singly and collectively. My point has always only been that it is not necessary for us to do "dark" things nor have others do "dark" things to us, in order to do so. That's the antithesis of maturity and growth. Experiencing God is how we grow and mature. That we are doing so in the midst of darkness doesn't mean that the darkness is what is maturing us.
That is correct. It is our response to the darkness that either matures our Spirit or impedes it.
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I wasn't ignoring your post by the way. Just haven't had coffee and need time to process.
