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I agree with you that Jesus claimed to be God and a God greater than all other gods . but the meaning of the words over time in those cultures and at it's roots thus history is never irrelevant to any discussion ever .
Jesus/ Jehovah claims to be everyones husband more than once why? because all those cultures had a deep root that was the same root and it ain't just Canaanites !
Last edited by Miss Blue; 02-23-2017 at 07:38 AM..
Can we keep this thread on topic please? At the time the Old Testament was written, Baal was a name applied to various gods. But the name was particularly associated with one god.
That topic, to state it again, is that the Gospels of Matthew and Mark record a claim of Jesus to be God. It is a fact that the Canaanite male god Baal was given the title, the one who rides the clouds. The Old Testament writers took that title and applied it to Yahweh. However, in Daniel 7:13 the title is used of the Son of Man and is the verse that Jesus quoted in reply to the high priests question to Him. In quoting that verse, Jesus claimed to be Deity.
RESPONSE:
Of course not. Look it up.
Perhaps you would want to do some basic research regarding terms used in scripture. For example, the “Son of Man” distinctly refers to humanity, not divinity.
“The early Fathers were of the opinion that the expression was used out of humility and to show Christ's human nature, and this is very probable considering the early rise of Docetism. This is also the opinion of Cornelius a Lapide. Others, such as Knabenbauer, think that He adopted a title which would not give umbrage to His enemies, and which, as time went on, was capable of being applied so as to cover His Messianic claims — to include everything that had been foretold of the representative man, the second Adam, the suffering servant of Jehovah, the Messianic king.”
The title, ''Son of Man'' is in part, a reference to Jesus' humanity and the title is used of other people in the Old Testament, but Caiaphas didn't get upset because Jesus said He was human. Caiaphas didn't go ''Arrggh, He just called himself human. That's blasphemy. He deserves to be put to death.'' No, Caiaphas understood full well that Jesus had just made a claim to Deity by stating that He would be seen coming on the clouds of heaven.
Gee, Caiaphas was standing there talking to G-d and got upset because Jesus said something like, "Yo, Phas, it's me G-d, ya feel me?...
Now many say the Jews rejected Jesus thereby rejecting G-d...Now, why would they reject G-d?...What puny human would think that he could reject G-d and get away with it?...It makes no sense...Throughout the entire Tanakh the Jews were told to expect a Mashiach Melekh [Anointed King] not G-d in the flesh...And they were told what characteristics and attributes to look out for and it will be those that indicate that Mashiach has come...
The Messianic Idea in Judaism
Belief in the eventual coming of the mashiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism. It is part of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith, the minimum requirements of Jewish belief. In the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, recited three times daily, we pray for all of the elements of the coming of the mashiach: ingathering of the exiles; restoration of the religious courts of justice; an end of wickedness, sin and heresy; reward to the righteous; rebuilding of Jerusalem; restoration of the line of King David; and restoration of Temple service.
Modern scholars suggest that the messianic concept was introduced later in the history of Judaism, during the age of the prophets. They note that the messianic concept is not explicitly mentioned anywhere in the Torah (the first five books of the Bible).
The term "mashiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.
The word "mashiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought. Unfortunately, this Christian concept has become so deeply ingrained in the English word "messiah" that this English word can no longer be used to refer to the Jewish concept. The word "mashiach" will be used throughout this page.
The Mashiach
The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.
It has been said that in every generation, a person is born with the potential to be the mashiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the mashiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the mashiach, then that person is not the mashiach.
I've done my research. Again, the title 'the one who rides the clouds' is used of deity. It was used of the god Baal in Ugaritic literature. The Old Testament writers took that term and applied it to Yahweh. But in Daniel 7:13 it is the Son of Man who is the cloud rider. Jesus quoted Daniel 7:13 and applied it to Himself, thereby claiming to be God.
It is in this way that the Gospels of Matthew and Mark refer to Jesus' deity.
I've done my research. Again, the title 'the one who rides the clouds' is used of deity. It was used of the god Baal in Ugaritic literature. The Old Testament writers took that term and applied it to Yahweh. But in Daniel 7:13 it is the Son of Man who is the cloud rider. Jesus quoted Daniel 7:13 and applied it to Himself, thereby claiming to be God.
It is in this way that the Gospels of Matthew and Mark refer to Jesus' deity.
I guess you'd believe that of anyone quoting it applying it to themselves...
Daniel - Chapter 7
13 I saw in the visions of the night, and behold with the clouds of the heaven, one like a man was coming, and he came up to the Ancient of Days and was brought before Him.
Rashi's Commentary:
one like a man was coming: That is the King Messiah.
and… up to the Ancient of Days: Who was sitting in judgment and judging the nations.
came: arrived, reached.
The one riding a cloud is not G-d, it is Mashiach HaMelech, because the one riding a cloud was brought up to the Ancient of Days, which is G-d...So, you are wrong again, Mike...If anything, he was claiming to be Mashiach HaMelech...So, it is obvious that you have not done your research properly...
I guess you'd believe that of anyone quoting it applying it to themselves...
Daniel - Chapter 7
13 I saw in the visions of the night, and behold with the clouds of the heaven, one like a man was coming, and he came up to the Ancient of Days and was brought before Him.
Rashi's Commentary:
one like a man was coming: That is the King Messiah.
and… up to the Ancient of Days: Who was sitting in judgment and judging the nations.
came: arrived, reached.
The one riding a cloud is not G-d, it is Mashiach HaMelech, because the one riding a cloud was brought up to the Ancient of Days, which is G-d...So, you are wrong again, Mike...If anything, he was claiming to be Mashiach HaMelech...So, it is obvious that you have not done your research properly...
Gee, Caiaphas was standing there talking to G-d and got upset because Jesus said something like, "Yo, Phas, it's me G-d, ya feel me?...
Now many say the Jews rejected Jesus thereby rejecting G-d...Now, why would they reject G-d?... [snip]
Why? Cause they were only following what their forefathers did, they rejected God.
Leviticus 26:43
.. "They will pay for their sins because they rejected my laws and abhorred my decrees."
Numbers 11:20
... you have rejected the Lord, who is among you, and have wailed before him, saying, “Why did we ever leave Egypt?”
Deuteronomy 31:20 When I have brought them into the land flowing with milk and honey, the
land I promised on oath to their ancestors, and when they eat their fill and thrive,
they will turn to other gods and worship them, rejecting me and breaking my covenant.
Deuteronomy 32:15
... They abandoned the God who made them and rejected the Rock their Savior.
1 Samuel 10:19 But you have now rejected your God, who saves you out of all your disasters and calamities.
1 Kings 19:10
... . The Israelites have rejected your covenant, torn down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword.
I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too.”
2 Kings 17:15 They rejected his decrees and the covenant he had made with their ancestors and the
statutes he had warned them to keep. They followed worthless idols and themselves
became worthless....
Psalm 118:22-23 The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes.
Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them,“Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“ ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? ' " ~ Jesus quoting Psalm 118:22-23
and also:
Acts 4:11 Jesus is “ ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’ "
__________________________________________________ _______________________________
why? Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first.
Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________
Last edited by twin.spin; 02-18-2017 at 03:06 PM..
I guess you'd believe that of anyone quoting it applying it to themselves...
Daniel - Chapter 7
13 I saw in the visions of the night, and behold with the clouds of the heaven, one like a man was coming, and he came up to the Ancient of Days and was brought before Him.
Rashi's Commentary:
one like a man was coming: That is the King Messiah.
and… up to the Ancient of Days: Who was sitting in judgment and judging the nations.
came: arrived, reached.
The one riding a cloud is not G-d, it is Mashiach HaMelech, because the one riding a cloud was brought up to the Ancient of Days, which is G-d...So, you are wrong again, Mike...If anything, he was claiming to be Mashiach HaMelech...So, it is obvious that you have not done your research properly...
I pointed out in the first post that the Ancient of Days is God the Father.
The one riding on the clouds is God as has already been shown in the posted verses in the OP. In Ancient Near Eastern thought the title 'he who rides the clouds' was applied only to deity. The Old Testament writers applied the title to Yahweh. But in Daniel 7:13 the Son of Man is said to be the cloud rider. Daniel 7:13 shows two divine 'Persons.' God the Father and God the Son. Daniel 7:13 is one of the passages which gave rise to the ''two powers in heaven'' belief that many Jews held before the rise of Christianity.
Old Testament scholar Michael Heiser addresses this subject in the article below.
Last edited by Michael Way; 02-18-2017 at 03:23 PM..
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What "Son of Man"means
