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Old 03-06-2017, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meester-Chung View Post
only cults set up after 1800 reject the trinity caliing it is man made

Isaiah 44:6King James Version (KJV)

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Revelation 1 verse 8

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Father — Galatians 1:1

Son — John 20:28

Spirit — Acts 5:3-4

Jesus' baptism—Matthew 3:13-17 (voice of the Father, Son baptized, Spirit descending like a dove).

Salvation—1 Peter 1:2 (chosen by the Father, sanctified by the Spirit, sprinkled with the blood of Jesus).

Sanctification—2 Corinthians 13:14 (grace of the Lord Jesus, love of God, fellowship of the Holy Spirit).

Christian Baptism—Matthew 28:19 (baptized in one name, yet three Persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

Prayer—Ephesians 3:14-21 (strengthened by his Spirit, know the love of Christ, filled with the fullness of God).

Christian Growth—2 Thessalonians 2:13 (chosen by God, loved by the Lord, sanctified by the Spirit).
The Trinity postulates that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate and distinct persons, yet they are all one being. None of those passages actually says that. I could easily go through each passage and explain why, but I've already one that countless times. I could tell you that you're reading into each passage a whole lot of text and meaning that isn't actually there. Instead of repeating myself and beating my head against the proverbial brick wall, let's do this instead. Find me a passage of scripture that clearly teaches the Trinity as described in the Athanasian Creed -- which is the best and most explicit description the doctrine of the Trinity that I know of. I'd say the stakes are pretty high. If all the Ecumentical Councils are correct on the matter, then everyone who rejects the Trinity doctrine as they defined it is doomed to spend eternity burning in hell. But I think it's a made up doctrine just like the Geocentric Universe, celibacy, the virtual deification of Mary and other "saints", trans substation, the notion that the bishop of Rome was the sole vicar of Christ, etc. There are many things that were accepted as absolute truth by virtually all Christians for centuries. Many were debunked by science. Others were rejected by the Protestant Reformation. So clearly the early Church got a lot of things wrong. Many of those wrong ideas persisted for centuries. So the prescribed acceptance of the Trinity as absolute truth is meaningless. It was declared to be a "bare minimum standard" by a highly politicized Christendom that was no longer in direct formal communication with God, owing to the closure of the Biblical canon and presumed end of all divine revelation.

If I'm working under the assumption that the Bible is God's one true guide for us to separate truth from falsehood. Can you find even one passage of Scripture that says, "Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate and distinct persons, but they are one being"? That sentence is the most basic description of the Trinity. If the fate of my eternal soul rests on understanding and accepting the Trinity, then I should hope that God was merciful enough to include a clear and unmistakable description of the Trinity in the Bible. Some passage very similar to that must surely exist, right? So ... where is it?
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Old 03-06-2017, 04:15 PM
 
4,564 posts, read 2,264,983 times
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Just as gospel writer John wrote about Jesus at Revelation 1:5; 3:14 B that the pre-human Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God.
God had No start, No beginning according to Psalm 90:2.
So, only God was before the beginning, and Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.
God is Un-created, whereas heavenly Jesus is firstborn of all creation according to Colossians 1:15
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Old 03-06-2017, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Canada
1,425 posts, read 1,143,189 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
The Trinity postulates that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate and distinct persons, yet they are all one being. None of those passages actually says that. I could easily go through each passage and explain why, but I've already one that countless times. I could tell you that you're reading into each passage a whole lot of text and meaning that isn't actually there. Instead of repeating myself and beating my head against the proverbial brick wall, let's do this instead. Find me a passage of scripture that clearly teaches the Trinity as described in the Athanasian Creed -- which is the best and most explicit description the doctrine of the Trinity that I know of. I'd say the stakes are pretty high. If all the Ecumentical Councils are correct on the matter, then everyone who rejects the Trinity doctrine as they defined it is doomed to spend eternity burning in hell. But I think it's a made up doctrine just like the Geocentric Universe, celibacy, the virtual deification of Mary and other "saints", trans substation, the notion that the bishop of Rome was the sole vicar of Christ, etc. There are many things that were accepted as absolute truth by virtually all Christians for centuries. Many were debunked by science. Others were rejected by the Protestant Reformation. So clearly the early Church got a lot of things wrong. Many of those wrong ideas persisted for centuries. So the prescribed acceptance of the Trinity as absolute truth is meaningless. It was declared to be a "bare minimum standard" by a highly politicized Christendom that was no longer in direct formal communication with God, owing to the closure of the Biblical canon and presumed end of all divine revelation.

If I'm working under the assumption that the Bible is God's one true guide for us to separate truth from falsehood. Can you find even one passage of Scripture that says, "Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate and distinct persons, but they are one being"? That sentence is the most basic description of the Trinity. If the fate of my eternal soul rests on understanding and accepting the Trinity, then I should hope that God was merciful enough to include a clear and unmistakable description of the Trinity in the Bible. Some passage very similar to that must surely exist, right? So ... where is it?

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!"4

"I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God."5

There is no God but one.6

And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."7

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."8

Jesus said: "I and the Father are one."9

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father."10

"He who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me."11

If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.12

"Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for that which has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit."13

And the angel answered and said to her [Mary], "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God."14

[Jesus speaking to His disciples] "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you." ... "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him."15

1) Genesis 1:26,27 (2) John 8:56-59 (3) John 5:16-18 (4) Deut. 6:4 (5) Isa. 45:5 (6) 1Cor. 8:4 (7) Matt. 3:16-17 (8) Matt. 28:19 (9) John 10:30 (10) John 14:9 (11) John 12:45 (12) Rom. 8:9 (13) Matt. 1:20 (14) Luke 1:35 (15) John 14:16-17, 23

The Trinity Explained, in Easy Terms
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Old 03-07-2017, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
7,382 posts, read 3,849,087 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meester-Chung View Post
"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!"4

"I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God."5

There is no God but one.6

And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."7

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."8

Jesus said: "I and the Father are one."9
John 17:22 "I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one--" So if we are to be one in the same manner as the Father and Son are one, does that imply merging into one being? Or are we talking about being united?

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father."10

"He who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me."11

If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.12

"Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for that which has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit."13

And the angel answered and said to her [Mary], "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God."14

[Jesus speaking to His disciples] "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you." ... "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him."15

1) Genesis 1:26,27 (2) John 8:56-59 (3) John 5:16-18 (4) Deut. 6:4 (5) Isa. 45:5 (6) 1Cor. 8:4 (7) Matt. 3:16-17 (8) Matt. 28:19 (9) John 10:30 (10) John 14:9 (11) John 12:45 (12) Rom. 8:9 (13) Matt. 1:20 (14) Luke 1:35 (15) John 14:16-17, 23

The Trinity Explained, in Easy Terms
All of which have their answers. All of which I have given answers to before. But you failed to answer my question.

Where is the passage that specifically and clearly states, "God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son and Holy Spirit are three separate and distinct persons, but they are one being"?

That statement constitutes the core of what the doctrine of the Trinity is. Traditional Christians are quite zealous about denouncing anyone who fails to accept their formula for describing God. "They're fake Christians! They're going to hell!" I have come to my own conclusions about the nature of God and how the Son and the Holy Spirit fit into all of it. But the onus of proof is on you to prove that the Trinity is absolute. You have yet demonstrate that the doctrine is ever taught in the Bible at all. In order to take such a hardline absolutist stance, I think you need to do a lot better than hints, allegations, things left unsaid, clear implications and reading between the lines. If our eternal salvation is at stake, then surely God must have put it clearly and unmistakably in his Perfect Word. Right?? So where is it?

The Biblical text leaves room for Unitarianism -- that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the same person, the same being and 100% the same thing. There is room for the Father to be the only god and for the Son and the Spirit to be something slightly less than gods. There is room for a sort of Tritheistic Monotheism where God the Father alone is to be worshiped, but the Son and the Spirit are separate and distinct beings also infinite in power, knowledge and perfection. The Old Testament leaves the door wide open for this by its constant use of "Elohim" or "Gods" to refer to God -- directly implying that there is a plurality and not a strict singularity. Take any passage from the Old Testament that says "God" and replace it with "Gods" and then see how it reads. There is room for quite a few other ideas. The space for such divergent theology exists by virtue of the fact that the Biblical text is not specific enough to rule them out.

We could go into all of that. Let's save it for another thread. Instead, let's focus on proving (or not proving) the contention that Trinitarians make that the Trinity is absolute, unquestionable and fully endorsed by the Biblical text. "Because a bunch of men voted on it centuries after the apostles were dead." is no kind of argument at all. "Because I said so." falls into the same category. "Because when I read the Bible with my presupposition that the Trinity is true, I see a lot of passages that seem to indirectly imply support for it." is a very poor argument to make as well. I'm asking for instances where the formal doctrine of the Trinity as outlined in the Athanasian Creed is taught in the Bible. Just as important, it is absolutely essential that you demonstrate that failure to accept it will doom me to eternal damnation.
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Old 03-08-2017, 11:36 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Canada
1,425 posts, read 1,143,189 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
All of which have their answers. All of which I have given answers to before. But you failed to answer my question.

Where is the passage that specifically and clearly states, "God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son and Holy Spirit are three separate and distinct persons, but they are one being"?

That statement constitutes the core of what the doctrine of the Trinity is. Traditional Christians are quite zealous about denouncing anyone who fails to accept their formula for describing God. "They're fake Christians! They're going to hell!" I have come to my own conclusions about the nature of God and how the Son and the Holy Spirit fit into all of it. But the onus of proof is on you to prove that the Trinity is absolute. You have yet demonstrate that the doctrine is ever taught in the Bible at all. In order to take such a hardline absolutist stance, I think you need to do a lot better than hints, allegations, things left unsaid, clear implications and reading between the lines. If our eternal salvation is at stake, then surely God must have put it clearly and unmistakably in his Perfect Word. Right?? So where is it?

The Biblical text leaves room for Unitarianism -- that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the same person, the same being and 100% the same thing. There is room for the Father to be the only god and for the Son and the Spirit to be something slightly less than gods. There is room for a sort of Tritheistic Monotheism where God the Father alone is to be worshiped, but the Son and the Spirit are separate and distinct beings also infinite in power, knowledge and perfection. The Old Testament leaves the door wide open for this by its constant use of "Elohim" or "Gods" to refer to God -- directly implying that there is a plurality and not a strict singularity. Take any passage from the Old Testament that says "God" and replace it with "Gods" and then see how it reads. There is room for quite a few other ideas. The space for such divergent theology exists by virtue of the fact that the Biblical text is not specific enough to rule them out.

We could go into all of that. Let's save it for another thread. Instead, let's focus on proving (or not proving) the contention that Trinitarians make that the Trinity is absolute, unquestionable and fully endorsed by the Biblical text. "Because a bunch of men voted on it centuries after the apostles were dead." is no kind of argument at all. "Because I said so." falls into the same category. "Because when I read the Bible with my presupposition that the Trinity is true, I see a lot of passages that seem to indirectly imply support for it." is a very poor argument to make as well. I'm asking for instances where the formal doctrine of the Trinity as outlined in the Athanasian Creed is taught in the Bible. Just as important, it is absolutely essential that you demonstrate that failure to accept it will doom me to eternal damnation.



The Bible never mentioned Unitarianism. only psuedo christian cults that started after 1800 claim the bible is anti-trinity.



Jesus is worshipped he is a part of the Godhead

Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'” (John 20:28)

Jesus never tell anybody not to worship him


the Magi laid eyes on the infant Christ, “they bowed down and worshiped Him” (Matthew 2:11).


The Bible records the initial response Jesus received when He made His triumphal entry into Jerusalem: “So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying out, ‘Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!’” (Matthew 21:9; John 12:13) The word hosanna is a plea for salvation and an expression of adoration. This word used by the crowd is definitely a form of worship.


Just after Jesus amazed the disciples by walking on water, “those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God’” (Matthew 14:33). Two more memorable examples of Jesus accepting worship occurred just after His resurrection. Some of the women (Matthew 21:1; Mark 16:1; Luke 24:10) were on their way to tell the disciples of the resurrection when Jesus met them on their way. When they realized it was He, they “came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him” (Matthew 28:9).


Isaiah 44.6

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.


Jesus said Rev 22:13

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Last edited by Meester-Chung; 03-08-2017 at 11:49 AM..
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Old 03-08-2017, 02:22 PM
 
4,053 posts, read 1,451,486 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peacecrusader888 View Post
The spirit of Ama and I had a conversation about the Trinity. This is how it went:

Aristeo Fernando: Ama, what is the meaning of Jesus Christ sitting at the right hand of God?
Ama: To His right.
Aristeo: Is that to His right?
Ama: Yes.
Aristeo: Aren't they only one? Jesus Christ, He is that God. Why will He say to His right?
Ama: Right. Right. Because there is God the Father.
Aristeo: Isn't God the Father, He is also Jesus Christ?
Ama: Good. That is right. But they were made into three: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. It is only one but they were made into three.
Aristeo: Ama, You are that God the Holy Spirit, aren't You? You are also Jesus whose spirit lived in the physical body of what we call Jesus Christ. Is that correct?
Ama: Good. For example, you, your child said "Daddy, please buy me a dress." Then your daughter said, "Daddy, please buy me a dress." You don't have sufficient money to buy for the two. You will ask yourself, who will you buy immediately? Who is that? Question. Isn't it that it is you yourself? Who did you ask? Isn't it that it is you yourself? Who said that it is that child you have to buy immediately? Isn't it that it is you yourself? Then you are three.

The one who decided is God the Father. The one who asked the question, God the Son. The Holy Spirit, who is it? That is the answer. You are three but you are only one.

(For Filipinos, this conversation is at http://aristean.org/transcript006.htm titled "Paliwanag tungkol sa Trinity".) (From 1999-04-25)



There is 0 doubt-- there is no trinity god in existence. The Israelites Never served a trinity god while serving the true God--Fact--When Jesus attended the synagogues and temples he was -- taught, served and worshipped a single being God named-YHWH(Jehovah)--His God --John 20:17, Rev 3:12


Catholicism created the trinity at their councils. It was not taught at the first council of Noicea-325) it was added later=100% fact.
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Old 03-09-2017, 12:13 AM
 
125 posts, read 53,821 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4 View Post
Just as gospel writer John wrote about Jesus at Revelation 1:5; 3:14 B that the pre-human Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God.
God had No start, No beginning according to Psalm 90:2.
So, only God was before the beginning, and Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.
God is Un-created, whereas heavenly Jesus is firstborn of all creation according to Colossians 1:15
Pretty sure that your cited passage refers to the resurrection. The text also says that all things were made through Him, not all other things.

"15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross." Col 1


Revelation 1:5New International Version (NIV)

5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

Psalm 90:2New International Version (NIV)

2 Before the mountains were born
or you brought forth the whole world,
from everlasting to everlasting you are God

Phillipians 2 "
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!"

Being the very nature of God does not seem to allow for the Son to be created.
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Old 03-09-2017, 05:10 AM
 
Location: Panama City, FL
2,569 posts, read 725,377 times
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I just wonder why people get so worked up about the trinity doctrine. Does it matter if God is a trinity or not a trinity? Or is it just one of those non-essential things that people love to argue about. Does someone have to be in the trinity or non-trinity camp to know God? The book of Revelation says there are seven spirits of God. Do people get upset about that?
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Old 03-09-2017, 09:32 AM
 
125 posts, read 53,821 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMusic View Post
I just wonder why people get so worked up about the trinity doctrine. Does it matter if God is a trinity or not a trinity? Or is it just one of those non-essential things that people love to argue about. Does someone have to be in the trinity or non-trinity camp to know God? The book of Revelation says there are seven spirits of God. Do people get upset about that?
It is because of verses like this:

"And He said, “See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not go after them." Luke 21 NASB

and this:

'24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that [f]I am He, you will die in your sins.” John 8 in the last paragraph or two in John 8 is where the Jews he was speaking to recognized that he claimed to be God. So if you are wrong about that...

It seems that if one is wrong about who he is there are dire consequences. So it is an intense debate.

Regardless of what one believes upon conversion whether Jesus was 'just' the Son of God and the one who atoned for my sin to restore relationship with God or he was God in the flesh, as one continues in the faith and studies we find that we are left with three persons who are each called God in the texts yet there is but one God. The Trinity is a fuller concept as a definition incorporating those verses. The heart of an Evangelical usually is based the recognition of eternal damnation for the nonbeliever and is rooted in love however it is often motivated by fear in my experience so it comes across as desperate. But I was merely attempting to answer why people so care about it. This may be incomplete cuz gotta go to work...
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Old 03-09-2017, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Panama City, FL
2,569 posts, read 725,377 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacG2014 View Post
It is because of verses like this:

"And He said, “See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not go after them." Luke 21 NASB

and this:

'24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that [f]I am He, you will die in your sins.” John 8 in the last paragraph or two in John 8 is where the Jews he was speaking to recognized that he claimed to be God. So if you are wrong about that...

It seems that if one is wrong about who he is there are dire consequences. So it is an intense debate.

Regardless of what one believes upon conversion whether Jesus was 'just' the Son of God and the one who atoned for my sin to restore relationship with God or he was God in the flesh, as one continues in the faith and studies we find that we are left with three persons who are each called God in the texts yet there is but one God. The Trinity is a fuller concept as a definition incorporating those verses. The heart of an Evangelical usually is based the recognition of eternal damnation for the nonbeliever and is rooted in love however it is often motivated by fear in my experience so it comes across as desperate. But I was merely attempting to answer why people so care about it. This may be incomplete cuz gotta go to work...
This is but one of many example of how Christians are divided over doctrine. You say a person's eternal destiny hinges on what he/she believes about the trinity. I'm so glad God is better than that. You make it sound as if God is interested in what grade we can make on a theological test rather than him loving us because we are his children made in his image. This is why I avoid organized religion. It's full of too much B.S. like this. Our eternal destiny hinges on God's grace, mercy and goodness. And you are so right that MANY do come IN HIS NAME claiming to be THE WAY, and I do not give heed to their voices because I follow the Lamb and listen for his voice.
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