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To all who follow this thread. instead of pointing out difference between our respective doctrine, maybe the approach should be gain on the similarities of each doctrine.
for example, the Diversified Oneness and the Trinity Doctrine is closer that most think. if it ok, let look at some of the similarities between the two.
#1. we both know that it is one God, who is spirit. for God is "a" Spirit, (John 24:4a). this is his nature. now the sticking point is "Person(s)". How can we resolve the person(s) problem?
Suggestion. let's look at what the bible says about God. the question is definitely about plurality, but the million dollar question how much plurality are there in the Godhead?, two or three, or ONE. let's concentrate on the plurality of the Spirit/God and maybe we can resolve the Person problem.
the first signs in the bible of God's plurality is right in the very first verse of the bible. Genesis 1:1. "1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth". but there's something missing in our English Speaking bibles. if one would go to the Hebrew Interlinear Bible (OT) at, Online Hebrew Interlinear Bible and click on Genesis 1:1, in the first verse one would see these two letters, אֵ ת
yes, letters and not a word, which was never translated in our English speaking bibles, until now. these two letters are the Pictograph aleph and the Tav. in English it is translated as the First and the Last. and in Greek the alpha and the omega. or simply put the beginning, and the end.
Let's start there for our discussion. by examining God from the beginning we can gain some insight on his plurality.
PCY
PCY
God is the first and the last. Gotcha. Jesus claimed that same title in Revelation 1.
We know that the First and the Last indicate at least two. But where do the third person come in at? To see that lets establish the First and the Last.
#1. Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, andI am the last; and beside me there is no God”.
Notice the conjunction “and” between first and last. The LORD all caps is the first “and” the LORD all caps is the last. How can this be of one PERSON?.
#2. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and withthe last; I am he”.
The word “with” here sends my mind straight to John 1:1 where “with” is used to tell us that the word is GOD. but also take note, it says that the First is "WITH" , hence indicating two. I agree totally.
#3. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last”.
This verse takes the cake. God said “I” am the first and “also the “Last”. here the same person who is the first is “also” the last. How can one person be “First” Aleph/Alpha and be “Last” Tav/omega at the same time.
This should get us off to a good start, or if someone have a different route to take, fell free to do so.
It was defined as an essential of the faith some 1800 years ago.
Do you mean by the religion that came out of Rome, that bow to graven images that fill their homes and churches?--Kiss their little metal icons-- Killed The members of their own religion for men like Adolf Hitler--Do you really know Jesus? Putting ones faith into those is a serious mistake.
No they don't. Paul clearly states in Philippians 3:5-8 that Jesus existed in the form of God and became man. And there several recorded instances in the New Testament where Jesus claims to be God.
By the way, there was within Judaism a belief among some Jews up until the second century AD when it was declared a heresy, of a 'two powers in heavens' theology based upon some of the scriptures in the Hebrew Bible such as Genesis 19:24 which speaks of YHVH raining down brimstone and fire from YHVH out of heaven.
Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD (YHVH) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from theLORD (YHVH) out of heaven,
While the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament, doesn't provide a clear Trinitarian picture, it does paint a binitarian (two powers in heaven) picture. Genesis 19:24 is just one such verse.
Here. listen to Old Testament scholar Michael Heiser as he talks about the two powers in heaven belief that existed in Judaism. I suspect however that you won't since you're not allowed to question what your JW teachers have taught you.
Your translation is the works of Catholicism. The only translating that remained by the time anyone else translated, no originals were left--No one was allowed to read the bible for nearly 1000 years after the councils were held--Those surely did not have Jesus. Yet every Trinitarian puts their eternal lives into that translating.
I don't need to listen to him. I have studied much for 50 years--Facts and the teachings of Jesus prove 100% the JW teachers are correct. Jesus warned you--John 15:20-21
Yeah, but what really matters is how it was defined 200 years further back.
It has been explained in detail earlier in this thread about how the Trinity came to be defined by the apostles 200 years before that council. It's not unclear.
Your translation is the works of Catholicism. The only translating that remained by the time anyone else translated, no originals were left--No one was allowed to read the bible for nearly 1000 years after the councils were held--Those surely did not have Jesus. Yet every Trinitarian puts their eternal lives into that translating.
I don't need to listen to him. I have studied much for 50 years--Facts and the teachings of Jesus prove 100% the JW teachers are correct. Jesus warned you--John 15:20-21
Have you ever seen a debate between a JW teacher and a really good apologist like James White? I'd love to see that. I'm guessing he'd mop the floor with any one of your teachers.
to all, if you don't mind, let's stay on the topic only. leave the Roman catholic church, the JW or an scholar out of this discussion, and let's just stick with the scriptures only. let's keep the conversation civil, please.
Your translation is the works of Catholicism. The only translating that remained by the time anyone else translated, no originals were left--No one was allowed to read the bible for nearly 1000 years after the councils were held--Those surely did not have Jesus. Yet every Trinitarian puts their eternal lives into that translating.
I don't need to listen to him. I have studied much for 50 years--Facts and the teachings of Jesus prove 100% the JW teachers are correct. Jesus warned you--John 15:20-21
You really don't know what you are talking about Kjw47. Manuscript P66 (Papyrus 66) is dated by most New Testament textual scholars to the late 2nd century or early 3rd century AD. Textual scholar Dan Wallace puts the date at around AD 175. P66 predates any of the church councils and the rise of Roman Catholicism. And John 1:1 says the same thing as later Greek New Testament manuscript copies containing the gospel of John.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Before the church councils, before Constantine, before the rise of Roman Catholicism, John 1:1 stated that the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
I think that what you are really saying is that you refuse to listen to Heiser's lecture on 'two powers in heaven' which again was a belief held by some within Judaism long prior to the beginning of Christianity. I suspect that the only thing you have ever studied is what the Jehovah's Witnesses have allowed you to study. You do in my opinion come across as having been seriously brainwashed by the organization you belong to.
Last edited by Michael Way; 01-12-2018 at 02:54 PM..
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