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Old 02-26-2017, 06:43 PM
 
472 posts, read 120,673 times
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The spirit of Ama and I had a conversation about the Trinity. This is how it went:

Aristeo Fernando: Ama, what is the meaning of Jesus Christ sitting at the right hand of God?
Ama: To His right.
Aristeo: Is that to His right?
Ama: Yes.
Aristeo: Aren't they only one? Jesus Christ, He is that God. Why will He say to His right?
Ama: Right. Right. Because there is God the Father.
Aristeo: Isn't God the Father, He is also Jesus Christ?
Ama: Good. That is right. But they were made into three: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. It is only one but they were made into three.
Aristeo: Ama, You are that God the Holy Spirit, aren't You? You are also Jesus whose spirit lived in the physical body of what we call Jesus Christ. Is that correct?
Ama: Good. For example, you, your child said "Daddy, please buy me a dress." Then your daughter said, "Daddy, please buy me a dress." You don't have sufficient money to buy for the two. You will ask yourself, who will you buy immediately? Who is that? Question. Isn't it that it is you yourself? Who did you ask? Isn't it that it is you yourself? Who said that it is that child you have to buy immediately? Isn't it that it is you yourself? Then you are three.

The one who decided is God the Father. The one who asked the question, God the Son. The Holy Spirit, who is it? That is the answer. You are three but you are only one.

(For Filipinos, this conversation is at http://aristean.org/transcript006.htm titled "Paliwanag tungkol sa Trinity".) (From 1999-04-25)
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Old 02-26-2017, 07:23 PM
 
Location: Newark, CA
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Do people actually believe this stuff?
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Old 02-27-2017, 01:15 AM
 
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Lord means speaker for God like landlord for the owner.

Acts 10:36 "The Word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching the good news of peace through Yahshua Messiah, He is Master YAHWEH of all."*

In our Genesis 1:1 that need to fix in Biblical English to stand corrected with the original script's saying, "In the beginning, God created the Word, two heavens, and the earth. "Frist and Last," "Alpha and Omega," or "אֵת" which means "the Word" matched John 1:1 and so on some other verses.

This should help out for lost sheep who thinking that Jesus is the Father.
Romans 6:23
1 Corinthians 1:9
1 Corinthians 8:6
2 Corinthians 11:31

"2 John is clearly pointing to Yahshua's preexistence with the Father and also that Yahshua was with the Father creating all things. If you look at all creation accounts in scripture there is always a duality to Elohim in creation consisting of Yah Yahweh the father and Yahshua Yahweh His son. Yahweh is a family name. Elohim is a plural word also. (Gen 1:26, Eccl 12:1, Ps 149:1, Is 54:5)" That quoted for footnote of John 1:3.**

"Also, our Savior clearly calls himself the Aleph and the Tav (Alpha and Omega in the Greek text) in Rev 1:8, and also Rev 22:13. The Aleph and the Tav are the first and last letter in the Hebrew alphabet. Interesting enough is the fact that in the Hebrew language an aleph and tav are inserted in certain places to show possession, however it is not translatable. Since some of the places could not be coincidental, as they are extremely important messianic scriptures, such as Zechariah 12:10, I have left the aleph/ tavs in place for the reader to see, even though they don’t translate into English."***

I have to disagree with the author in an amount of ways, but helped me find the lost puzzles!

Here two links you should read. Just don't forget that not to overlooked this said what someone responded to my shared the links to them, "So you can see that Jesus was not just referring to Himself as letters in the alphabet, but He specifically was saying that He was the Word of God that was in the beginning with God."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_1:1
https://beta.groups.yahoo.com/neo/gr...messages/52645

Please, if you can translate the Hebrew of Gen 1:1 to English correctly please do so, here. I am getting tired of some people lead astray from truth and Good News because they follow false leaders instead trust their eye that see God's words from bible.

*Don Esposito. Hebraic Roots Bible (Kindle Locations 38742-38743). C of YHWH Jerusalem. Kindle Edition.

**Don Esposito. Hebraic Roots Bible (Kindle Locations 48911-48914). Congregation of YHWH Jerusalem. Kindle Edition.

***Don Esposito. Hebraic Roots Bible (Kindle Locations 73-77). Congregation of YHWH Jerusalem. Kindle Edition.
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Old 02-27-2017, 03:23 AM
 
7,856 posts, read 6,660,208 times
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The priest in the tabernacle in the wilderness during Moses temple would go beyond the veil in into the inner chamber were the ark of the covenant which housed God would be , and the priest would move to the Right Side of the Ark were God was .......They would tie a rope to the leg of the priest , and if the priest had sin he could die right there and they would drag the priest out by a rope ...... Like if the priest broke the rules and moved to the left side it could of been fatal for the priest , like there was reports that one priest lit the consuming fire with fire not of God and died , and another man put his hand on the ark to secure it and died .... so it was a hazard in the presence of God in the earth, one reason God sent Jesus
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Old 02-27-2017, 07:15 AM
 
Location: In God's Hand
1,100 posts, read 538,993 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peacecrusader888 View Post
The spirit of Ama and I had a conversation about the Trinity. This is how it went:

Aristeo Fernando: Ama, what is the meaning of Jesus Christ sitting at the right hand of God?
Ama: To His right.
Aristeo: Is that to His right?
Ama: Yes.
Aristeo: Aren't they only one? Jesus Christ, He is that God. Why will He say to His right?
Ama: Right. Right. Because there is God the Father.
Aristeo: Isn't God the Father, He is also Jesus Christ?
Ama: Good. That is right. But they were made into three: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. It is only one but they were made into three.
Aristeo: Ama, You are that God the Holy Spirit, aren't You? You are also Jesus whose spirit lived in the physical body of what we call Jesus Christ. Is that correct?
Ama: Good. For example, you, your child said "Daddy, please buy me a dress." Then your daughter said, "Daddy, please buy me a dress." You don't have sufficient money to buy for the two. You will ask yourself, who will you buy immediately? Who is that? Question. Isn't it that it is you yourself? Who did you ask? Isn't it that it is you yourself? Who said that it is that child you have to buy immediately? Isn't it that it is you yourself? Then you are three.

The one who decided is God the Father. The one who asked the question, God the Son. The Holy Spirit, who is it? That is the answer. You are three but you are only one.

(For Filipinos, this conversation is at http://aristean.org/transcript006.htm titled "Paliwanag tungkol sa Trinity".) (From 1999-04-25)
Ama just denied being the Holy Ghost by referring to God as "they" instead of "we" in being "made" into three. And on top of that, the real Holy Ghost cannot speak for Himself or on His own initiative.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

And God was not "made" because God is God. Who can make God? God simply is.

So do not believe every spirit, but test them as there can be no lie of the truth.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth........26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming..
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Old 03-02-2017, 08:46 PM
 
472 posts, read 120,673 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorInSpirit View Post
Ama just denied being the Holy Ghost by referring to God as "they" instead of "we" in being "made" into three. And on top of that, the real Holy Ghost cannot speak for Himself or on His own initiative.
Why can the real Holy Ghost not speak for himself or on His own initiative? Did you know that I doubted Him in 1999 before I started to do my studies on His revelations that Jesus was born on 05-23 and died on 08-17? After eleven years of doubt (1983-1994), I finally believe that the spirit we (plural) talk to is Jesus.

Quote:
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

And God was not "made" because God is God. Who can make God? God simply is.
I agree because God is God.

Quote:
So do not believe every spirit, but test them as there can be no lie of the truth.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Please read my doubt and my belief above.
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Old 03-04-2017, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
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Quote:
The Holy Trinity is not a mystery anymore
And yet it is still a false made up doctrine of man.

I do try to understand the doctrine of the Trinity even if I think it's made up nonsense. I want to at least understand this self-contradictory doctrine that sees so many millions of Christians pronounced "not real Christians" for their failure to accept it. I've seen countless attempts to make it less confusing. Nothing much has ever worked. Most people who presumably believe in the Trinity find it hopelessly confusing. Most of them just ignore it and move on to loving God, trying to be like Jesus, etc.
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Old 03-04-2017, 09:16 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Canada
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only cults set up after 1800 reject the trinity caliing it is man made



Isaiah 44:6King James Version (KJV)

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Revelation 1 verse 8

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.



Father — Galatians 1:1

Son — John 20:28

Spirit — Acts 5:3-4

Jesus' baptism—Matthew 3:13-17 (voice of the Father, Son baptized, Spirit descending like a dove).

Salvation—1 Peter 1:2 (chosen by the Father, sanctified by the Spirit, sprinkled with the blood of Jesus).

Sanctification—2 Corinthians 13:14 (grace of the Lord Jesus, love of God, fellowship of the Holy Spirit).

Christian Baptism—Matthew 28:19 (baptized in one name, yet three Persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

Prayer—Ephesians 3:14-21 (strengthened by his Spirit, know the love of Christ, filled with the fullness of God).

Christian Growth—2 Thessalonians 2:13 (chosen by God, loved by the Lord, sanctified by the Spirit).
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Old 03-05-2017, 08:34 AM
 
9,818 posts, read 13,883,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
And yet it is still a false made up doctrine of man.

I do try to understand the doctrine of the Trinity even if I think it's made up nonsense. I want to at least understand this self-contradictory doctrine that sees so many millions of Christians pronounced "not real Christians" for their failure to accept it. I've seen countless attempts to make it less confusing. Nothing much has ever worked. Most people who presumably believe in the Trinity find it hopelessly confusing. Most of them just ignore it and move on to loving God, trying to be like Jesus, etc.

Because most people can not think of anything they do not observe in daily life. Simple things. Most people actually can barely think at all. The Light of Intelligence is very dimmed in them.
Because most people, church including, made Trinity look like it's 3 different being. Which is absolutely wrong. It is one being. One entity. One concept.
With three aspect, faculties to it. Not three bodies. heck, god does not even have a body. God is everything, everything is its body. How many aspects everything has? Infinite number.
Problem for lay minds to understand concept like Trinity is anthropomorphism.
A human mind hankers something familiar. It sees fire. It is easy to digest concept of god as fire. It sees animal. It is easy to fathom god as animal.
It sees another and is a human being. It is very easy to accept concept of god as another human. It is familiar concept. Simple.
But to understand an immaterial god that, as immaterial, can be anything - is beyond mind grasp. So mind creates similarities, ideas it can understand as based in what mind perceives as reality. Another man. Two men. A dove connecting two men. This is good, this is what mind can understand....

Look at it this way. Here is a simple example. You know a person. When asked, you describe that person as one with "sharp, intelligent, observant, calculative mind". Safe to presume, in your life you met or thought of other people this way. As no one is "single line", all have complexities.
But you had no confusion understanding this description, correct? Pretty common, easily understood...
But what you are describing is different ASPECTS AND FACULTIES OF THE SAME MIND. Further expanded, you saw or heard people that have multiple personalities yet, you are easily digesting that concept, right?
So why is it so hard to accept same for a "god"? Where Creator is "father" as conception giving principle, and as it is in everything, it is in each of its "sons" and as it is always in its creation, that principle of permanent presence in its creation is "holy spirit"? It's as simple as 1 2 3.
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Old 03-06-2017, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
7,382 posts, read 3,849,087 times
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Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Because most people can not think of anything they do not observe in daily life. Simple things. Most people actually can barely think at all. The Light of Intelligence is very dimmed in them.
This is a pretty unproductive beginning. "People can't comprehend the Trinity because they're too stupid." or "They're just dead batteries spiritually." I rejected the Trinity doctrine ages ago. My relationship with God and Christ didn't diminish. Quite the opposite actually. I know God better than I know anything. I feel his love so powerfully, words cannot express it. He has answered my prayers so powerfully that there is absolutely no room for doubt remaining. If God appeared in front of me right this second, it wouldn't actually increase how certainly I know Him. And it's all so amazing because I am so thoroughly undeserving of all of it.

But you are welcome to continue chalking up my rejection of and inability to comprehend the Trinity to, "very dimmed Light of Intelligence" if you like. As with any theological debate within Christianity, we're not likely to ever convince one another. But I believe that God is merciful than the early Church fathers and Ecumenical Councils insisted he was merciless and cruel. I refuse to believe that an otherwise devoted Christian will get tossed into hell for eternity for getting the exact nature of God wrong. So no I don't think you're going to burn for your acceptance of the false doctrine of the Trinity.

Quote:
Because most people, church including, made Trinity look like it's 3 different being. Which is absolutely wrong. It is one being. One entity. One concept.
Most people I know have never met three people who were one unified being. Honestly, most lay Christians I've known believe that there are three separate beings, and they just smile and nod when the Trinity is being explained to them. Many churches tend to just avoid talking about it much because it just confuses people and makes God feel unreal and distant. Instead, they focus on grace, the love of Christ, feeling the Spirit, righteous living. Things that are a lot more straightforward and simple to deal with.

Quote:
With three aspect, faculties to it. Not three bodies. heck, god does not even have a body.
The New Testament doesn't leave room for doubt on this issue. Jesus was physically resurrected. He took that body with Him when he ascended into heaven. He still has that body right now. So even if I were to agree that God the Father has no body (which I don't agree with), as a Trinitarian you would still have to accept that the Triune God does have at least one physical body.

Quote:
God is everything, everything is its body. How many aspects everything has? Infinite number.
Problem for lay minds to understand concept like Trinity is anthropomorphism.
It sounds like you're injecting classic Hinduism into Christianity. Regardless, the notion that God is everything isn't scriptural. It's yet another gift from Greek philosophy.

Quote:
A human mind hankers something familiar. It sees fire. It is easy to digest concept of god as fire. It sees animal. It is easy to fathom god as animal. It sees another and is a human being. It is very easy to accept concept of god as another human. It is familiar concept. Simple.

But to understand an immaterial god that, as immaterial, can be anything - is beyond mind grasp. So mind creates similarities, ideas it can understand as based in what mind perceives as reality. Another man. Two men. A dove connecting two men. This is good, this is what mind can understand....
Genesis says that Elohim (or Gods) created man in their own image. It's even more explicit. It says, "after our likeness" to further emphasize the point. Rather than doing theological gymnastics to slam the square peg through the round hole, I take this passage to mean precisely what it says: That if God the Father and/or Jesus Christ were to appear to us, they'd look like a human being. Two arms, two legs, two eyes, to ears, a beard, etc. And in all cases where prophets saw god, that is exactly what they experienced. He appears in physical human form. Whether he's standing in the air or sitting on a throne or whatever else, the men who actually saw God never described the God you're describing. None of the prophets and apostles ever taught the doctrines you're referencing either. But Plato and other Greek philosophers certainly did teach them.

The idea that God the Father has a physical body doesn't make him any less infinite. You say that the entire universe is his body. I say he's bigger than that. The universe is something that He controls and comprehends effortlessly. And the fact that God the Son has a body -- once again -- is just a matter of scriptural fact. The Holy Spirit is unclear because He is almost never described or discussed in much detail in scripture. It is my opinion that the Holy Spirit is incorporeal and only a spirit, in contrast to Father and Son who are both spirit and body.

Quote:
Look at it this way. Here is a simple example. You know a person. When asked, you describe that person as one with "sharp, intelligent, observant, calculative mind". Safe to presume, in your life you met or thought of other people this way. As no one is "single line", all have complexities.
But you had no confusion understanding this description, correct? Pretty common, easily understood...
But what you are describing is different ASPECTS AND FACULTIES OF THE SAME MIND. Further expanded, you saw or heard people that have multiple personalities yet, you are easily digesting that concept, right?
So why is it so hard to accept same for a "god"? Where Creator is "father" as conception giving principle, and as it is in everything, it is in each of its "sons" and as it is always in its creation, that principle of permanent presence in its creation is "holy spirit"? It's as simple as 1 2 3.
The idea that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are perfectly united in thought, intent, purpose, goals, etc. is something I wholeheartedly accept. I would go further to say that they are infinitely united in these matters, to the point that we can't comprehend how alike they are in personality and character. It is also my contention that every true aspect of God generally has something useful for us to emulate. Unlike the pagan god, Christianity teaches us of three all-powerful beings who do not have separate agendas and goals. Beings that are truly all-knowing and all-powerful. Beings who are not subject to human pettiness, lust, greed, envy and vice. As Jesus taught us, the Son has no agenda nor purpose except to do the will of the Father. The Spirit has no agenda nor purpose except to teach us with will of the Father. Compared with the gods that the ancient world was used to, Christianity was introducing something very different.

People can't comprehend the Trinity because it is quite intentionally a logical contradiction. During the early days of there were three viewpoints. 1.) God the Father and Jesus Christ were the same being and the same person. 2.) God the Father and Jesus Christ were two separate and distinct beings and persons. 3.) You had a camp of people who wanted both options to be true at the same time. Their motives can only be guessed at, but I wouldn't be surprised if a significant part of it was trying to unify Christianity. The Trinity would allow you to tell both groups, "You're right!" Another motivation would have been Greek philosophy. Greek philosophers loved impossible, self contradictory mind puzzles, and the Trinity is exactly the kind of thing that one might expect from them. In its primitive form, it postulates that three people can be one person and three infinite beings can be one infinite being. It postulates that 3=1. And with that logical all the merry mental gymnastics can now begin and the Greek philosophers can begin geeking out about it. It almost 500 years and numerous Ecumenical Councils to sort out how this logical contraction works and to establish an insanely nitpicky orthodoxy for understanding it.

Not everyone was onboard. Many Christians rejected the Trinity. When the Roman Empire adopted Christianity and eventually became the orthodoxy gestapo, many groups fled the Empire in order to continue believing as they saw fit. The utter obsession with orthodoxy helped pave the way for the Islamic conquest of the Middle East, Egypt and North Africa. Many there were Monophysites, among other "heresies" and these folks were the majority of Christians in modern day Syria, Jordan, Israel and Egypt. A Monophysite is a person who holds that in the person of Jesus Christ there is only one nature (wholly divine or only subordinately human), not two. By the nitpicky standards of the Church, this was unacceptable and Monophysites were hunted down as heretics. When the Muslims showed up, the Monophysites were offered the prospect of being allowed to continue to believe as they saw fit beyond the reach of Rome's militarily enforced orthodoxy. So the Monophysites and other heretics actually welcomed Muslim rule. Now imagine if these "heretics" hadn't had so much incentive to get away from Rome? What if they had fought back against the Muslims instead of welcoming and even preferring them? History might have gone very differently. This is just one example where draconian notions of orthodoxy has made Christendom weak and ripe for invasion.
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