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This subject (sola scriptura) has been referred to lately and thought it might be timely to bring it up. The following verses are talking about the first conference in the NT church:
Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 ¶ And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. …….. 22 ¶ Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
This was an important point in the Church.. they had come together, the Holy Ghost had spoken, and they were able to discern His voice and come to unity on this matter.
As was referred to earlier, I believe there are two opposite ditches when it comes to this issue. One would be relying on the traditions, interpretations and practices of men, the other being "independant", not accountable to my brother.. simply following "my own" convictions and direction. We each need our own direction, that is true... but what do we see in the above verses? A giving up of "our" ideas (which we sometimes label as a strong conviction or inspiration from God).. and as we submit to each other, God speaks.
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
As a former craddle Catholic who has been redirected to Jesus Christ, I'm intrigued by non Catholics who believe in sola scriptura and completely reject "man made or apostolic traditions", yet they follow the man-made traditions of man such as Calvin, Luther, King James. Scripture commands us to "Hold the Traditions that you have learned, whether by word or by letter of ours", 2Thess 2:15.
Isn't the sola scriptura doctrine of "Individual Interpretation of Holy Scripture
a man-made tradition?
Why do non Catholics celebrate Christmas day? It is a "man-made tradition" as non Catholics always say.
Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus was born on December 25th?
Where does it say in the Bible NOT to baptist infants or that baptism should be done by imersion ONLY?
Where in the Bible does it say that Catholics WORSHIP Mary?
Lastly, forgive my ignorance, but I have read the Lord's Supper many times:
Mat 26:26-30, While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after giving thanks he broke it, gave it to his disciples, and said, “Take, eat, this IS my body.” And after taking the cup and giving thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood, the blood of the covenant, that is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, from now on I will not drink of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” After singing a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
and no where in the passage that Jesus say this is a symbol of my body and flesh.
I want to learn more of my Catholic faith and part of the learning is to understand what other Christians believe and how they practice their faith.
Thank you in advance,
Frank
My problem was that I wasn't a practicing Catholic. I was born and raised Catholic but was not in Christ. By the Grace of God, my Catholic faith is stronger then ever now. Amen
My problem was that I wasn't a practicing Catholic. I was born and raised Catholic but was not in Christ. By the Grace of God, my Catholic faith is stronger then ever now. Amen
Frank
I figured as such, and I believe
the doctines and traditions of our Church, are there to glorify Christ.
Without Christ first and foremost, they are meaningless.
Location: land of quail, bunnies, and red tail hawks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FBoet
Sola scriptura may be contrasted with Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox teaching, in which doctrine is taught by the teaching authority of the Church, drawing on the "Deposit of Faith", based on what they consider to be "Sacred Tradition", of which Scripture is a subset.
Why are there over 33,000 Christian denominations with over 33,000 interpretations of scripture? Very dangerous when the reader, according to Protestants, can assume their own interpretation of scripture, and completely ignore all of the sacred traditions passed on by the early Christians.
I find it truly frightening that some Christian faiths would consider Scripture a subset of "sacred traditions." Isn't that backwards?
2 Timothy 3:14-17
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Notice verse 16 says all Scripture is inspired by God, not tradition.
When Timothy is told in verse 14 to continue in the things which he has learned (traditions? Scripture?), his assurance in those things comes from knowing who taught him those things. Earlier, you quoted 2 Thessalonians 2:15 which says, "Hold the traditions that you have learned, whether by word or by letter of ours." Notice, the traditions spoken of have already been taught at the time of the writing. It does not say to hold on to traditions that will be introduced sometime in the future.
Further insight into this verse might be found in 2 Thessalonians 3:6 when Paul tells the Christians at Thessalonica to "withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us." Paul continues by stating that he and his companions weren't disorderly, rather they travailed day and night and worked for their keep. They weren't busybodies, nor were they idlers. In context, the word "traditions" is related to the good example that was set by Paul and his companions.
Remember also that the verse in 2 Thessalonians comes right after a warning to not be deceived. Paul is telling the church at Thessalonica that apostasy will come into the church, so they are to hold on to what they have already been taught. Indeed, the word "tradition" is most often associated with arbitrary interpretation of Scripture by men whose hearts are far away from God. (Matthew 15, Mark 7, Galatians 1:14, Colossians 2:8, I Peter 1:18, Isaiah 29:13, Micah 6:6)
Location: land of quail, bunnies, and red tail hawks
1,513 posts, read 3,387,912 times
Reputation: 3539
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBoet
Lastly, forgive my ignorance, but I have read the Lord's Supper many times:
Mat 26:26-30, While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after giving thanks he broke it, gave it to his disciples, and said, “Take, eat, this IS my body.” And after taking the cup and giving thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood, the blood of the covenant, that is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, from now on I will not drink of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” After singing a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
and no where in the passage that Jesus say this is a symbol of my body and flesh.
Why would Jesus have to tell His disciples that the bread and the wine were symbols? He was holding the bread, and He was holding the cup. Obviously, He wasn't holding His physical body, nor had He bled Himself and poured His blood into the cup. It seems to me that the disciples would have clearly understood that this was an object lesson, and Jesus was speaking metaphorically. A metaphor is a depiction of an object by stating it is something that it clearly is not. A metaphor is a poetic or evocative way of making a point, yet it is easily understood by anyone familiar with the objects being compared.
This scene must also be understood in context. Jesus and His disciples were celebrating a traditional Passover meal. A traditional Passover Seder incorporates three pieces of unleavened bread that are placed in a special linen holder. The middle piece of bread is traditionally broken in half; one half is placed back in the holder; the other half is hidden for the children to find later during the meal. Jesus was telling His disciples that the bread they had always seen broken in half was representative of His body that would soon be broken. Furthermore, the bread was unleavened bread which foreshadowed that Jesus would be without sin; the bread was also striped with a knife and pierced with many small holes before baking.
In all ways, the bread was representative of Jesus. The stripes and piercings represented the beatings and piercing He would receive at the Crucifixion. The unleavened bread indicated Jesus would be without sin. Hiding half the broken piece of bread demonstrated His body would be "hidden" in the tomb, but the someone finding the bread indicated that the body wouldn't remain hidden.
Initially, the three pieces of bread are wrapped in separate compartments of the special linen cloth. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were once united in heaven. The middle piece of bread is removed from the cloth (Jesus was sent to earth). While removed from the Father and Holy Spirit, Jesus would be broken (crucified). Jesus' spirit would ascend to heaven (Today you will be with me in Paradise) so half the bread is replaced in the special linen (some celebrants eat this half of the bread), but his body would be placed in the tomb so the other half of the bread is wrapped in a separate piece of linen and hidden. However, the hidden piece would be recovered (Jesus would raise from the dead) and placed back in the special linen (Jesus would be reunited with the Father and Holy Spirit).
Likewise, the cup of wine is symbolic. Four cups of wine were consumed during the Passover Seder at the time of Jesus. The four cups are generally associated with blessing, wrath, salvation/redemption, and kingdom. They are representative of Exodus 6:6-7: "I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God."
Some people speculate that the cup representing Jesus' blood was the third cup, the cup of salvation/redemption. The cup that was divided among the disciples (as recorded in Luke 22) might have been the cup of the kingdom. Jesus said he would not take of this cup until the kingdom of God comes.
Please note that what I outlined above is a Messianic interpretation of the Passover Seder. Because there are some slight variations in tradition, there are slight variations in interpretation. Also, some time after this event, a fifth cup was added to the Passover celebration. This cup is for Elijah, and a door is left open for him.
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I'm sure you realize the word "IS" is not emphasized in the Bible.
[quote=Blueberry;3508774]I find it truly frightening that some Christian faiths would consider Scripture a subset of "sacred traditions." Isn't that backwards?
2 Timothy 3:14-17
"14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.Notice verse 16 says all Scripture is inspired by God, not tradition."
I find it truly frightening that some Christian faiths would consider Scripture a subset of "sacred traditions." Isn't that backwards?
2 Timothy 3:14-17
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Notice verse 16 says all Scripture is inspired by God, not tradition.
When Timothy is told in verse 14 to continue in the things which he has learned (traditions? Scripture?), his assurance in those things comes from knowing who taught him those things. Earlier, you quoted 2 Thessalonians 2:15 which says, "Hold the traditions that you have learned, whether by word or by letter of ours." Notice, the traditions spoken of have already been taught at the time of the writing. It does not say to hold on to traditions that will be introduced sometime in the future.
Further insight into this verse might be found in 2 Thessalonians 3:6 when Paul tells the Christians at Thessalonica to "withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us." Paul continues by stating that he and his companions weren't disorderly, rather they travailed day and night and worked for their keep. They weren't busybodies, nor were they idlers. In context, the word "traditions" is related to the good example that was set by Paul and his companions.
Remember also that the verse in 2 Thessalonians comes right after a warning to not be deceived. Paul is telling the church at Thessalonica that apostasy will come into the church, so they are to hold on to what they have already been taught. Indeed, the word "tradition" is most often associated with arbitrary interpretation of Scripture by men whose hearts are far away from God. (Matthew 15, Mark 7, Galatians 1:14, Colossians 2:8, I Peter 1:18, Isaiah 29:13, Micah 6:6)
I figured as such, and I believe
the doctines and traditions of our Church, are there to glorify Christ.
Without Christ first and foremost, they are meaningless.
BTW: your doing a great job here. thank you.
Thank you.
Four years ago I had what I call a 2X4 moment. That's when God smacks you across the head with a tragedy or life crisis that makes one finally wake up and acknowledege the Lord. I lost my beloved mother-in-law 4 years ago and my family and I were led back to The Church. After doing the RCIA program and being Confirmed Catholic on Easter Vigil 2006, I can really appreciate our traditions and the whole mystical body of Christ in our Mass now. I can't believe that I was a Creaster(Christmas/Easter only) for 43 years. Now I can't get enough of the Word or stay away from Mass. The more I read scripture the more is the truth revealed to me
Gotta get back to Bible study homework now. We're studying Acts of the Apostles and I can now appreciate the beginning of the Catholic Church.
Four years ago I had what I call a 2X4 moment. That's when God smacks you across the head with a tragedy or life crisis that makes one finally wake up and acknowledege the Lord. I lost my beloved mother-in-law 4 years ago and my family and I were led back to The Church. After doing the RCIA program and being Confirmed Catholic on Easter Vigil 2006, I can really appreciate our traditions and the whole mystical body of Christ in our Mass now. I can't believe that I was a Creaster(Christmas/Easter only) for 43 years. Now I can't get enough of the Word or stay away from Mass. The more I read scripture the more is the truth revealed to me
Gotta get back to Bible study homework now. We're studying Acts of the Apostles and I can now appreciate the beginning of the Catholic Church.
Frank
Unfortunatley, I'm one of the Father's strong willed kids.
And He's had to take the 2x4 to me on many occassions
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