Keeping score, what does "works" mean?

[jonesg]

Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28

YES!!!

WE can not LOVE anyone if we do not LOVE ourselves...
.

It depends on what a person tries to do first.

[Choir Loft]

Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8

This is going to sound new agey cheeseball. Don't you think it's hard for a person to love another when they don't much like themselves? I hate it when I see someone putting themselves down as a sinner or worthless slave. I especially hate seeing someone hold their past mistakes against themselves. Lying once does not make a person a liar. The worst has to be a poster like 99 that now believes an important part of pleasing God is who he loves. I think that is the healing power of the Christ. You ARE forgiven as well as worthy so just accept that and move onto forgiving others or helping them see that they are as well. Only then can you love another when there is nothing to fill within yourself.

The Biblical definition of love is "doing". It is an action rather than a motivation. Like the slogan for Nike sportswear, one is encouraged to "just do it".

According to the Bible, God's definition of love has nothing to do with the human experience of sensual motivations - either altruistic or passionate.

The Bible tells us that God interprets obediance and trust as love. God has revealed that there is nothing more important we can give Him. This is a rather alien idea for most of us because human definitions of love fall within the context of socially acceptable responses to hormonal secretions. In short, God's idea of love is emotionless behavior while human ideas of love are based upon motivations and sensations. The one is entirely alien to the other.

But the love God recognizes from humans toward Him is NOT outside our capacity to understand or beyond our ability to perform. Humans are cerebral creatures as well as sensual ones. We can understand as well as feel. Therein lies our greatest blessing and our greatest stumbling block. In terms of living with God we have to choose how we will respond - in response to our sensuality or in response to behavior. Most of us can do both. Many of us can do neither.

Genesis chapter 3 is the Garden of Eden temptation story. Genesis tells us that God gave everything to Adam and Eve - everything they could possibly need or want. This made for a good life, but lead to a conundrum in the relationship between God and His people. What do you give someone who has everything? What could Adam and Eve give to God that God could not make for Himself?

LOVE - in the form of obedience, in the form of behavior in the face of intense temptation to NOT obey to NOT behave in a manner pleasing to God. God's expectation of human love toward Him is to "just do it".

God created the tension of temptation so as to make human behavior extremely valuable to both the human and to God. Obedience is interpreted by God as love. Therefore the garden temptation was created by God so as to allow Adam and Eve to give something to God which God could NOT create - selfless sacrifice and obedience to His request - in the face of great temptation to disobey.

It was God's intent to give Adam and Eve the greatest gift of all - the ability of a human to love God out of their own determination and behavior. It was a thing God could not create. Only Adam and Eve could do it.

We know what happened next. Love for God was corrupted and man's ideas and expience of love both spiritual and sensual has been problematic ever since. We can never go back to the Garden, but God has provided a way forward.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Rbbi1]

Originally Posted by Choir Loft

The Biblical definition of love is "doing". It is an action rather than a motivation. Like the slogan for Nike sportswear, one is encouraged to "just do it".

According to the Bible, God's definition of love has nothing to do with the human experience of sensual motivations - either altruistic or passionate.

The Bible tells us that God interprets obediance and trust as love. God has revealed that there is nothing more important we can give Him. This is a rather alien idea for most of us because human definitions of love fall within the context of socially acceptable responses to hormonal secretions. In short, God's idea of love is emotionless behavior while human ideas of love are based upon motivations and sensations. The one is entirely alien to the other.

But the love God recognizes from humans toward Him is NOT outside our capacity to understand or beyond our ability to perform. Humans are cerebral creatures as well as sensual ones. We can understand as well as feel. Therein lies our greatest blessing and our greatest stumbling block. In terms of living with God we have to choose how we will respond - in response to our sensuality or in response to behavior. Most of us can do both. Many of us can do neither.

Genesis chapter 3 is the Garden of Eden temptation story. Genesis tells us that God gave everything to Adam and Eve - everything they could possibly need or want. This made for a good life, but lead to a conundrum in the relationship between God and His people. What do you give someone who has everything? What could Adam and Eve give to God that God could not make for Himself?

LOVE - in the form of obedience, in the form of behavior in the face of intense temptation to NOT obey to NOT behave in a manner pleasing to God. God's expectation of human love toward Him is to "just do it".

God created the tension of temptation so as to make human behavior extremely valuable to both the human and to God. Obedience is interpreted by God as love. Therefore the garden temptation was created by God so as to allow Adam and Eve to give something to God which God could NOT create - selfless sacrifice and obedience to His request - in the face of great temptation to disobey.

It was God's intent to give Adam and Eve the greatest gift of all - the ability of a human to love God out of their own determination and behavior. It was a thing God could not create. Only Adam and Eve could do it.

We know what happened next. Love for God was corrupted and man's ideas and expience of love both spiritual and sensual has been problematic ever since. We can never go back to the Garden, but God has provided a way forward.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Excellent post. And that's me, hollering back, grateful for an echo. Peace

[L8Gr8Apost8]

Originally Posted by Choir Loft

The Biblical definition of love is "doing". It is an action rather than a motivation. Like the slogan for Nike sportswear, one is encouraged to "just do it".

According to the Bible, God's definition of love has nothing to do with the human experience of sensual motivations - either altruistic or passionate.

The Bible tells us that God interprets obediance and trust as love. God has revealed that there is nothing more important we can give Him. This is a rather alien idea for most of us because human definitions of love fall within the context of socially acceptable responses to hormonal secretions. In short, God's idea of love is emotionless behavior while human ideas of love are based upon motivations and sensations. The one is entirely alien to the other.

But the love God recognizes from humans toward Him is NOT outside our capacity to understand or beyond our ability to perform. Humans are cerebral creatures as well as sensual ones. We can understand as well as feel. Therein lies our greatest blessing and our greatest stumbling block. In terms of living with God we have to choose how we will respond - in response to our sensuality or in response to behavior. Most of us can do both. Many of us can do neither.

Genesis chapter 3 is the Garden of Eden temptation story. Genesis tells us that God gave everything to Adam and Eve - everything they could possibly need or want. This made for a good life, but lead to a conundrum in the relationship between God and His people. What do you give someone who has everything? What could Adam and Eve give to God that God could not make for Himself?

LOVE - in the form of obedience, in the form of behavior in the face of intense temptation to NOT obey to NOT behave in a manner pleasing to God. God's expectation of human love toward Him is to "just do it".

God created the tension of temptation so as to make human behavior extremely valuable to both the human and to God. Obedience is interpreted by God as love. Therefore the garden temptation was created by God so as to allow Adam and Eve to give something to God which God could NOT create - selfless sacrifice and obedience to His request - in the face of great temptation to disobey.

It was God's intent to give Adam and Eve the greatest gift of all - the ability of a human to love God out of their own determination and behavior. It was a thing God could not create. Only Adam and Eve could do it.

We know what happened next. Love for God was corrupted and man's ideas and expience of love both spiritual and sensual has been problematic ever since. We can never go back to the Garden, but God has provided a way forward.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

I'm not sure why you quoted me. Did you disagree with me on something or are you trying to expand on something I said? I agree that love starts with motivation but ultimately is about action. Love means you refrain from causing someone else pain or more pain by things like personal attacks. That can be hard to do when you are the one in pain though especially if they are the one throwing the blows at you. That's why I believe it is important that we first learn to love ourselves and stop the personal attacks from within. For along time that love yourself mantra was an enigma wrapped in a paradox to me.

I think that is where the command to love others comes in because in many ways it is easier to look outside yourself and see that when someone we loves makes a mistake it is just a mistake. Sometimes I get full of myself and act like the world's axis turns on my spelling mistakes and I hold onto things like somewhere other people are preoccupying themselves with me and my screw ups. When I extend that compassion to myself my need to defend goes away as well as my need to "get" something I don't have by being "better". Can you let someone else have the win once in awhile? I remember the first time someone took a swing at me (on the internet) and I saw a woman in pain instead of an adversary. Someone struggling just like me to be right and have the last word. Man do I hate it when I see someone pulling the same crap I do. I had multiple links all fired up and ready to go to prove her wrong and embarrass her for daring to question me. Instead I stopped and simply replied "Maybe you are right". Try it sometime, it's exhilarating.

As far as humans not being able to fathom the love of the Christ I would agree with that. I don't think it is in opposition to the love we feel though. Maybe that's why we are to love on another to practice for the main event. You say that is to love God and I say that is to love the self so we can give to others.