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None of the 144,000 are Christians. They are all Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel that are listed. The church, that is, all Christians, are raptured into heaven before the Tribulation ever begins and are not a part of the 144,000 Jews.
And the only person putting anyone into the outer court of Gentiles is you. You can't seem to understand that in the church-age there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in the body of Christ. The Holy of holies is open to all who in the body of Christ. The tearing of the veil in the temple when Jesus died signifies that fact.
You are the one who insists on making a distinction between Jew and Gentile that does not exist in this dispensation for those who have believed in Christ Jesus.
No Mike, if you aren't amongst those firstfruits, you are in the court.
But that is ok, there is salvation in the court, but those 144,000 give birth because they are called FIRSTFRUITS and when do the FIRSFRUITS GET RESURRECTED?
Revelation 14
3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.5No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
Purchased from all the history of mankind Mike, EVERY ONE WHO IS IN CHRIST AT HIS COMING.
The Order of Resurrection 1 Corinthians 15
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Ok, so you are not counted amongst the firstfruits at the coming of the Lord, that's ok Mike, there is still salvation in the court, and you agree with dude that you are not a firstfruit
Revelation 7 and Revelation 11 is the exact same event happening in the exact same hour on Rosh Hashanah. Those two witnesses ARE the two sections of the Temple of God and all those people are counted and we watch as they are sealed in their forehead on Rosh Hashanah in Revelation 7.
Just before Revelation 11 begins, the angel tells him that he must go back again and prophesy to the peoples and nations and so Revelation 11 is showing exactly what is happening in Revelation 7.
The temple is being measured by the people being counted in the two sections of the temple proper and although that outer court of gentiles is not counted, they are still standing at the temple of God.
Those people who are sealed in their forehead and right hand because they kept the holy days and traditions of God are separated and protected from the people standing in the court of gentiles at the Temple of God and then a civil war of the temple ensues.
If you do not receive the protective seal of God in your forehead as God promises you in Exodus 13, then you are sealed with Babylon because of what holy days and traditions you keep. You keep the ways of God in Jerusalem, and you are promised protection.
This is Rosh Hashanah taking place where people realize where they stand and they have ten days to do good works and to repent in order to come to God.
Every single year your name is spoken whether you know it or not, Jesus went to officiate the holy days of the Temple so that when Rosh Hashanah comes, your name will be spoken and written in the book of life if you have received the protective seal of God against the judgment of Yom Kippur.
ONLY the people in the two sections of the temple proper are counted because they accepted the ways of God whether they were gentiles or Jews, they were promised by God to receive this seal because they kept his Sabbaths and Holy days instead of the ways of the world and this promise goes to gentile and Jew.
If you are not listed amongst the tribes of Israel in Revelation, it is because you didn't seek to become Israel, you didn't receive the promise of the seal because you wouldn't accept Unleavened bread and the Sabbaths of God. God promises this seal to even the gentile who loves his law and his feasts. But that is ok, there is still salvation for all those gentiles standing in the outer court.
No Mike, if you aren't amongst those firstfruits, you are in the court.
But that is ok, there is salvation in the court, but those 144,000 give birth because they are called FIRSTFRUITS and when do the FIRSFRUITS GET RESURRECTED?
Revelation 14
3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.5No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
Purchased from all the history of mankind Mike, EVERY ONE WHO IS IN CHRIST AT HIS COMING.
The Order of Resurrection 1 Corinthians 15
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Ok, so you are not counted amongst the firstfruits at the coming of the Lord, that's ok Mike, there is still salvation in the court, and you agree with dude that you are not a firstfruit
The identification of the 144,000 as the first fruits indicates that they are the first fruits of a larger harvest of Israelites who will turn to the Lord at the end of the Tribulation. There is no connection here with the mention of Jesus as the first fruits in 1 Cor. 15:23.
The order of resurrection is this.
1.) Jesus is the firstfruits of those to be resurrected (1 Cor. 15:23). That means that Jesus was the first person to be resurrected into a body of incorruptibility and immortality.
2.)Then the church is resurrected prior to the Tribulation (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). The resurrection of the church takes place at the same time that it is raptured.
3.) Then all Old Testament believers and Tribulational martyrs are resurrected at the second advent of Christ (Revelation 20:4).
All of the above is the first resurrection, in phases or stages.
The second resurrection is that of all unbelievers at the end of the Millennium.
And once again, no one is stuck in the outer court. You ignore the fact that Paul stated that there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in the body of Christ. You ignore the fact that the tearing of the veil in the temple when Jesus died signified the fact that the Holy of holies, and therefore heaven, is open to all believers in Christ Jesus.
Last edited by Michael Way; 05-19-2017 at 01:58 PM..
No Mike, firsfruits of resurrection are firstfruits of resurrection, you either make it or you don't and if you are not amongst those 144,000, YOU DONT.
You really believe that God is going to resurrect those 144,000 and then later at some other time, all those in Jesus are resurrected?
Those 144,000 have the testimony of Jesus and they love the commandments of the Lord, and they are gentile and Jew.
EVERYONE in Christ who is in Christ will be a firstfruit amongst those 144,000 who were redeemed from all of man kind.
I already showed you the order of resurrection and how those in Christ are the firstfruits, did you not believe it?
Again, all those in Christ who are first fruits are all risen together as one.
The Order of Resurrection 1 Corinthians 15
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Again
Revelation 14
They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.5No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
No Mike, firsfruits of resurrection are firstfruits of resurrection, you either make it or you don't and if you are not amongst those 144,000, YOU DONT.
You really believe that God is going to resurrect those 144,000 and then later at some other time, all those in Jesus are resurrected?
Those 144,000 have the testimony of Jesus and they love the commandments of the Lord, and they are gentile and Jew.
EVERYONE in Christ who is in Christ will be a firstfruit amongst those 144,000 who were redeemed from all of man kind.
I already showed you the order of resurrection and how those in Christ are the firstfruits, did you not believe it?
Again, all those in Christ who are first fruits are all risen together as one.
The Order of Resurrection 1 Corinthians 15
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Again
Revelation 14
They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.5No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
No, you did not show me the order of resurrection. You simply posted 1 Corinthians 15:23 with absolutely no understanding of what it means. And I already told you that the 144,000 mentioned as the first fruits has no connection with 1 Corinthians 15:23 where Jesus is called the first fruits of those to be resurrected. You have no idea how to properly interpret the scriptures.
Jesus is the firstfruits of the resurrection. Everyone else is resurrected later and at different times. I've already provided the scriptural references that attest to the fact that the church is next in line to be resurrected after Jesus and prior to the Tribulation, and then the Old Testament believers and tribulational martyrs after the Tribulation are resurrected.
Jesus is the firstfruits of the resurrection. Everyone else is resurrected later and at different times.
LOL, do you know how many scriptures there are that contradict what you are saying?
The reason your ideas contradict what is real is because we are discussing Judaism and you are doing it from Christianity and all their silly pre conceived ideas about what is going to happen in Revelation when Revelation comes to each generation.
For 2000 years Christians have been keeping the feasts and traditions of Babylon, but they read Revelation and wonder who those people of Babylon are.
So then comes all these excuses and explanations as to why it isn't them who practice the ways of Babylon, it must be somebody else.
All these gentile Christians over all these years discussing Jewish holy days, Jewish traditions, Jewish rituals, and prayers from the Torah cycle but they want to discuss it from Babylon and what Christianity is today.
What Christianity is today is not what the first Christianity was, those gentiles converted to Judaism and they began learning the ways of Jews.
Today people want to talk about Jewish Holy days, Jewish idioms and what happens inside a Jewish temple when they refuse to even study what they are talking about.
Why isn't the church praying for the rain of Tabernacles and why aren't they keeping it?
They don't keep it but they don't mind talking about how Revelation shows it unfolding, they speak of it but know nothing of the grape harvest or any of the things pertaining to the temple, and because they don't know the traditions and ways of the temple, they invent things.
I am talking about Judaism, and you are talking about something else.
LOL, do you know how many scriptures there are that contradict what you are saying?
The reason your ideas contradict what is real is because we are discussing Judaism and you are doing it from Christianity and all their silly pre conceived ideas about what is going to happen in Revelation when Revelation comes to each generation.
For 2000 years Christians have been keeping the feasts and traditions of Babylon, but they read Revelation and wonder who those people of Babylon are.
So then comes all these excuses and explanations as to why it isn't them who practice the ways of Babylon, it must be somebody else.
All these gentile Christians over all these years discussing Jewish holy days, Jewish traditions, Jewish rituals, and prayers from the Torah cycle but they want to discuss it from Babylon and what Christianity is today.
What Christianity is today is not what the first Christianity was, those gentiles converted to Judaism and they began learning the ways of Jews.
Today people want to talk about Jewish Holy days, Jewish idioms and what happens inside a Jewish temple when they refuse to even study what they are talking about.
Why isn't the church praying for the rain of Tabernacles and why aren't they keeping it?
They don't keep it but they don't mind talking about how Revelation shows it unfolding, they speak of it but know nothing of the grape harvest or any of the things pertaining to the temple, and because they don't know the traditions and ways of the temple, they invent things.
I am talking about Judaism, and you are talking about something else.
Since I posted the Scriptures which back up what I said, there are no Scriptures which contradict what I said.
And why are you pushing Judaism on the Christianity forum anyway?
There are various views concerning the book of Revelation. Some hold to a preteristic interpretation. Some hold to an historical interpretation, and some like myself hold to the futuristic view of Revelation. A literal interpretation lends itself to the futuristic view in which from chapter 4 onward, everything takes place after the church has been raptured and resurrected.
Since I posted the Scriptures which back up what I said, there are no Scriptures which contradict what I said.
And why are you pushing Judaism on the Christianity forum anyway?
There are various views concerning the book of Revelation. Some hold to a preteristic interpretation. Some hold to an historical interpretation, and some like myself hold to the futuristic view of Revelation. A literal interpretation lends itself to the futuristic view in which from chapter 4 onward, everything takes place after the church has been raptured and resurrected.
I hold to Judaism in the book of Revelation because it is nothing but Jewish traditions and what goes on inside the temple as the holy days are officiated.
I hold to Judaism because of the fact that the first Christianity was just converts of Judaism and Christianity was a legal sect of Judaism where a gentile had a Passover lamb, a Yom Kippur goat, a sukkot bull and everyone believed in the religion of God.
I speak for Judaism because of the fact that Christianity WAS Judaism, and what was written in Revelation IN FACT concerns the fall festivals of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur and showing the feast of tabernacles unfolding but that you may not see these things because you don't know Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur or the sickle coming down for the grape harvest of the feast of Tabernacles, you have immersed yourself within Jewish idioms of Jewish Holy days that you don't believe in but that you want to have an opinion of.
I say to you again, learn the fall Holy days appointed as visitation days of Christ to his church appointed for his second comings and his second rain as everything in Revelation is written to a Jew who knows these holy days, they know all these appointed prayers and things happening in Revelation that are known amongst Jews but not gentiles.
Just like that 30 min of silence, people have been inventing what it means because they simply don't know what it means, and then they take the most ancient of traditions being sealed and marked in your forehead as a protective seal of God BECAUSE you kept his 7 feasts of his Christ, Gentiles don't know of such culture and heritage that Jews practiced for thousands of years and suddenly they teach people as if this is some new thing in the world when it in fact goes back to exodus 13 and whether you will keep the Sabbaths and feasts or not, and whether you keep the Sabbaths or not is going to seal your forehead with Jerusalem or Babylon because this is the promise of God and God's promises are sure.
I hold to Judaism in the book of Revelation because it is nothing but Jewish traditions and what goes on inside the temple as the holy days are officiated.
I hold to Judaism because of the fact that the first Christianity was just converts of Judaism and Christianity was a legal sect of Judaism where a gentile had a Passover lamb, a Yom Kippur goat, a sukkot bull and everyone believed in the religion of God.
I speak for Judaism because of the fact that Christianity WAS Judaism, and what was written in Revelation IN FACT concerns the fall festivals of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur and showing the feast of tabernacles unfolding but that you may not see these things because you don't know Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur or the sickle coming down for the grape harvest of the feast of Tabernacles, you have immersed yourself within Jewish idioms of Jewish Holy days that you don't believe in but that you want to have an opinion of.
I say to you again, learn the fall Holy days appointed as visitation days of Christ to his church appointed for his second comings and his second rain as everything in Revelation is written to a Jew who knows these holy days, they know all these appointed prayers and things happening in Revelation that are known amongst Jews but not gentiles.
Just like that 30 min of silence, people have been inventing what it means because they simply don't know what it means, and then they take the most ancient of traditions being sealed and marked in your forehead as a protective seal of God BECAUSE you kept his 7 feasts of his Christ, Gentiles don't know of such culture and heritage that Jews practiced for thousands of years and suddenly they teach people as if this is some new thing in the world when it in fact goes back to exodus 13 and whether you will keep the Sabbaths and feasts or not, and whether you keep the Sabbaths or not is going to seal your forehead with Jerusalem or Babylon because this is the promise of God and God's promises are sure.
No, the book of Revelation is not about Jewish traditions. The book of Revelation first of all addresses Jesus' messages to the seven churches of Asia which seem to represent churches throughout the present church-age. Then beginning with chapter four John is given a vision of God's judgment upon Israel and upon the earth. And then in chapter twenty there is a brief mention of the thousand year Millennial kingdom after which the topic turns to the new heavens and earth.
The Judgments of the Tribulation, the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments are literal judgments in which much of the earth's population will be killed. The purpose of the Tribulation is to cause the Jews to recognize that Jesus is the Messiah that they rejected at His first advent and to call for Him to return.
Christianity was never Judaism. It was simply legally recognized as a part of Judaism by Rome for a while.
The Jews persecuted Christians. Before his conversion Paul was responsible for arresting and putting to death many Christians by the Jews. The first Christians were Jews who believed that Jesus was the Messiah. Concerning the Jews who converted to Christianity from Judaism historian Everett Furguson writes;
The church early drew adherents from strict Law-observant Jews, from faithful Jews who were not so strict in keeping the Law, from Gentile proselytes, and from those more Hellenized in their attitudes. Internal tension soon manifested itself between those designated by the culturally descriptive terms Hebrews (Hebraic Jews) and Hellenists (Grecian Jews).
Church History volume one, p. 34
The first Christians being Jews does not equal Christianity being Judaism. Again, the first persecution of Christians came from the Jews.
And I say to you again, that the feast days with which you are so obsessed have nothing to do with Christianity. They concern Israel, not the church.
Revelation is written to the Church.
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