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I have a blog that goes into "synergy". Maybe I could do a thread on "synergy" so that people can better understand the totality of the depravity of the sinful nature. Our spirits as unregenerate sinners are of the devil. They cannot receive revelation and are in spiritual relationship with Satan - and so we are children of the devil spiritually through sin. However, we were created good in Adam to be God's children. So though God sees us as His children as a Heavenly Father in original creation (Acts 17) the reality of our current spiritual unregenerate state is that spiritually we are children of the devil. (I can get the scriptures if needed to prove that - John 8, etc.)
That is why we must be born again spiritually.
When we are born-again spiritually... our spirits are born of God. Our spirits that are born of God are in synergistic spiritual relationship with God the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit.
These are 2 completely different spiritual "states of being": unregenerate vs. regenerate.
Just like the devil can do no evil without the Lord's permission - children of the devil can do no evil without the Lord's permission. God does not do evil - but He does restrain evil or He can choose to allow evil to function. When we do evil as sinners (or as Christians functioning according to the sinful nature: now external to ours hidden man internal spirits) we are not under our own autonomous personal control. We are under Satan's control spiritually in the kingdom of darkness in our souls.
When we do "good"... we are functioning by the power of the Holy Spirit in our spirits strengthened and enabled/empowered by the Holy Spirit. We are not under our own autonomous personal control. We are under the Holy Spirit's control in fruits of the Spirit in the Kingdom of Light in our souls from our own spirits. We can do nothing apart from Jesus Christ - and we can only do good by the empowering divine intervention grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.
We always do "our own will"... but our will is never "free" of the external restraint of the Holy Spirit limiting us from doing "more evil"... or the internal enabling of the Holy Spirit "empowering us" to do good.
The will that we do that is "our own will"... is synergistically related to God and Satan spiritually... with God in overall Sovereign (Kingship Rulership) power of authority in either granting permission in allowing us to do evil or giving grace by spiritually empowering us to do good. We are synergistically inter-dependent upon Satan and/or God... as well as inter-related spiritually with these spiritual powers greater than ourselves.
We never function independent of Satan's rule and/or God's rule... even if we think we do just because we are unaware of the spiritual synergy of kingdom realities co-functioning in union with us here on earth.
It is, in my opinion, a complete illusion to believe we are not under God's Sovereign rule and doing His will... no matter what we will. Even our will is infused with God's Spirit by His grace... or it is being ruled by Satan's spirit by God's permission.
Sometimes, what we don't know... is just beneath the threshold of our own awareness - yet revealed by the Lord our God in the Word - which rules out our ability to "do our own will"... against the ultimate Ruling Power of God... who has Satan under His control... and thus us under His control... even as we are under Satan's control... in this world at times.
Spiritual co-relationship exists. We cannot be independent autonomous beings... for we are spiritual beings in a spiritual reality that only appears to be an autonomous material reality. We are not in kingdom power or authority over Satan in his kingdom when we sin. We are not in Kingdom power or authority over God in His Kingdom when we obey God.
We are being ruled... whether we realize it... or not... as I see, know, and understand a synergistic inter-dependent, inter-related spiritual reality in our "low man" position in spiritual reality as created beings with no power to "break the rule" of God.
The spirit of a born-again Christian is in perfect synergy with the Holy Spirit having been born of the Spirit in 100% agreement as the function of state of being of a spiritual child of God. That spirit will not change. Because the spirit will not change... no spiritual decision will ever be made at spirit level to stop following the Lord... and it's therefore not possible for a born-again spirit to "change his/her mind". The mind of the born-again spirit is "the mind of Christ". (What happens at soul level as spirit battles Satan/sinful nature cannot overturn the decision of the spirit - and salvation is a spiritual, not soulish, decision.)
OSAS. By nature of spiritual state of being and all things that correlate in spiritual union in Christ as a born-again spirit in the Spirit in Christ.
It's not possible to change. Salvation is state of being at spiritual level in Christ: a new creation in Christ created/re-created/re-generated... by God 100% by Grace and God's Sovereign move of the Spirit.
Free will?? The will of the born-again spirit is 100% God's Perfect will. The will of the sinful nature is 100% Satan's evil will. What happens in the soul may be our conscious awareness of the unseen spiritual dimension... but it is not "source" of will... and "source" is under the rule of God - not us. We just experience a conscious awareness of our own wills at the end of the line as the result of the unseen dynamics that are occurring around and within us - that are ultimately under the Sovereign Rule and Reign of the Lord God Almighty. We have a will... we exercise it as we will... but doesn't mean it's not God's ultimate will being done... no matter which way we turn.
This, to me, is the nature of true unseen spiritual reality.
Grace and peace,
"LeeLee"
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
Eternal life is translated as aionios or age abiding life , age enduring life, or life related to the ages , eonios life in some translations. And Jesus said that this life was knowing the Only True God and Jesus Christ whom He sent. (John 17) I believe that we obtain immortality upon the resurrection. One question I have for those who believe in one saved always saved, how does the belief in free will fit with this? What if someone decides that he or she does not want to follow the Lord anymore? If they continue to remain in a saved condition, eventually coming back, how can they really have free will? Just asking. Because I believe that they will eventually return, I don't believe in free will. God bless.
Once saved always saved is incorrect. Jesus warns about falling away. Jesus' parable of the seed and the sower has 2 of 3 who recieves (believes) falling away. Jesus said that at the end times many will fall away.
Those who believe in it has to totally ignore warnings like these about believing and then falling away:
2 Peter 2:20-22
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
2 John 1:8-9 Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God.
Now don't misunderstand about "worked for". John doesn't mean that we can work for our salvation. He is warning about falling away and losing eternal life.
What is the context of these verses twin.spin? 2 Peter 2 is speaking of FALSE teachers leading people astray. There are certainly those who "taste" the righteousness of God or who come to some "knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" or who know "the way of righteousness" but are never born again. There is only one way of salvation. If someone is drawn to it, but then again returns to the things of the world, what other hope is there for him since he has rejected the only thing that can save. The key here is the proverb in verse 22--"a DOG returns to his own vomit," and "a SOW, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire." An unsaved person, no matter how attracted he may be temporarily to the things of God, will always return to what he is--an unsaved person.
2 John 8 is speaking not of salvation or the loss of it but of the loss of FULL reward. The whole point of verse 9 is that the one who "transgresses" and "does not ABIDE (unsaved) in the doctrine of Christ does NOT HAVE God." The one who DOES ABIDE (saved) "in the doctrine of Christ HAS both the Father and the Son."
As I stated before, the real issue is not what we do but what God has done in us. HE has regenerated us; HE has redeemed us; HE has made of us a new man, a new creation; HE has made us alive in Christ. In order to lose our salvation, we would have to UNdo all of these works wrought by God alone. We CANNOT do that! We never had the power to accomplish them in ourselves in order to save ourselves; we do not have the power to undo them!
As I stated before, the real issue is not what we do but what God has done in us. HE has regenerated us; HE has redeemed us; HE has made of us a new man, a new creation; HE has made us alive in Christ. In order to lose our salvation, we would have to UNdo all of these works wrought by God alone. We CANNOT do that! We never had the power to accomplish them in ourselves in order to save ourselves; we do not have the power to undo them!
In Christ, Preterist
Preterist,
The fatal flaw in your approach is in the two little words "we cannot." You seem to think that all the data of Scripture can be forced into your logical system. We must let all the statements of Scripture stand even if we cannot force them into our system.
Believers can fall from faith because the Bible teaches that believers can fall from faith. In explaining the parable of the sower our Savior says, “Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away†(Luke 8:13).
Paul writes to the Galatians, “you who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen from grace†(Galatians 5:4).
Again Paul writes, “Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to the faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith†(1 Timothy 1:19). To shipwreck one’s faith is to destroy one’s faith.
The Bible warns us, “If you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!†(1 Corinthians 10:12)
Among the other passages that deal with this are Matthew 13:18-23, Luke 8:11-15,Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:26, and John 10:27-29. Luke 8: 13 clearly speaks of those who believe for awhile and then fall away. Hebrews 6 is perhaps the strongest because it speaks of those who fall as having been enlightened and having shared in the Holy Spirit. It seems to refer to those whose fall is final because they commit the sin against the Holy Spirit. We also have the example of David who fell from faith and was restored.
But in times of doubt we should not look at our feelings to see if
we ever felt saved but at the truths of objective justification which proclaim what Christ has done for us once and for all. Our works, which testify to the presence of faith in us, are an assurance of our calling and election, but for our confidence we should look outside ourselves to the verdict of God (1 John 3:20). The faith the Holy Spirit has worked in us assures us of our election (Ephesians 1:11-14).
Knowing when to preach either of these two teachings is a matter of recognizing the difference between the Law and the Gospel. The Law is to warn the complacent, the Gospel is to comfort the troubled.
Preterist,
The fatal flaw in your approach is in the two little words "we cannot." You seem to think that all the data of Scripture can be forced into your logical system. We must let all the statements of Scripture stand even if we cannot force them into our system.
Believers can fall from faith because the Bible teaches that believers can fall from faith. In explaining the parable of the sower our Savior says, “Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away” (Luke 8:13).
Paul writes to the Galatians, “you who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen from grace” (Galatians 5:4).
Again Paul writes, “Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to the faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith” (1 Timothy 1:19). To shipwreck one’s faith is to destroy one’s faith.
The Bible warns us, “If you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!” (1 Corinthians 10:12)
Among the other passages that deal with this are Matthew 13:18-23, Luke 8:11-15,Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:26, and John 10:27-29. Luke 8: 13 clearly speaks of those who believe for awhile and then fall away. Hebrews 6 is perhaps the strongest because it speaks of those who fall as having been enlightened and having shared in the Holy Spirit. It seems to refer to those whose fall is final because they commit the sin against the Holy Spirit. We also have the example of David who fell from faith and was restored.
But in times of doubt we should not look at our feelings to see if
we ever felt saved but at the truths of objective justification which proclaim what Christ has done for us once and for all. Our works, which testify to the presence of faith in us, are an assurance of our calling and election, but for our confidence we should look outside ourselves to the verdict of God (1 John 3:20). The faith the Holy Spirit has worked in us assures us of our election (Ephesians 1:11-14).
Knowing when to preach either of these two teachings is a matter of recognizing the difference between the Law and the Gospel. The Law is to warn the complacent, the Gospel is to comfort the troubled.
twin.spin: What exactly are you saying? I want to be clear. Are you saying that believers can be shaken in their faith but can then be restored to fellowship again through repentance and the conviction of the Holy Spirit? Or are you saying that true believers, born again from above through the matchless omnipotence of God by mighty works that completely create in us something totally other than what we were, can of our own "free" will completely UNDO all of those constitutional changes God wrought within us?
If the latter is what you believe, by what divine decree of God and by what miraculous undertaken does God undo His own creation within us? Can we, through our own power, makes ourselves UNborn again? Can we, through our own power, UNregenerate ourselves, UNjustify ourselves, UNredeem ourselves, UNadopt ourselves, UNbaptize ourselves into the body of Christ, etc.? All of these things would require as great a miraculous act on the part of God as that which brought them about in us in the first place! Do we have such power? If we did, we could then UNcreate the mountains and the seas, and the heavens, and the sun and the moon and the stars and all the galaxies!
Again, this whole issue of eternal security revolves around an inadequate and shallow understanding of the great magnitude of the foundational and constitutional changes that are wrought in a believer at salvation. We CANNOT any more change back into the Old Man and UNcreate the New than a butterfly can of its own power revert to a caterpillar.
"If any man be in Christ, he is a NEW CREATION; old things are past away; behold, ALL things are become NEW."
ALL the data of Scripture fits into this Biblical concept of the greatness of man's transformation BY God at salvation.
I suggest to you that you look at those verses you provided again and make sure you are understanding them correctly. Scripture interprets Scripture. I am sure that once-saved-always-saved proponents have given you as many if not more verses that support THEIR perspective. What do you do with them? We did NOT and could not chose Him; we do NOT and cannot UNchose Him.
Preterist
Last edited by Preterist; 05-12-2008 at 01:16 PM..
I think the "fatal flaw" in reasoning - as I see the "big picture" - is that man since the fall does not think in terms of himself as a created being rather than "a god". As a created being, we are subject to a Creator. This is not a matter of will, but rather our position as beings.
Romans 8:19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that[a] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
As we see, all of creation (which includes us as created beings) are subjected to frustration not by our own choice, but the will of the one who subjected our hopes to Him.
The cry of a being who thinks in terms of himself/herself as "a god" is that his/her will is not subjected to the will of a Creator as a creation. All things are centered in a "big picture" paradigm that man "is as a god" and possesses "free will" that God would never frustrate nor subject to His will. The paradigm of man as an "autonomous being as his own god" cannot possibly conceive of any reality in which his will is not the center of all things related to his own state of being. However, a paradigm that reduces man to a created being whose will is subjected to the will of His Creator... does not see the will of man as "sacrosanct", "too holy to touch", or "impenetrable, impermeable, or... irresistable": supreme.
So, then, the question I would raise in order to see if a paradigm shift is possible is to ask those who believe that "free will" is the center of all truth of God's Word... are you created beings whose wills by virtue of Creation are subjected to the will of your Creator... even in your fall from grace??
I think the scripture bears out that are wills even as a fallen creation... who has will... are subject to frustration according to the will of our Creator who subjected our wills to His own - even in our fallen states.
If we are created beings, if the scripture is true that a created being still has a will, and that will is not able to escape it's frustration by coming out from under subjection to the Creator's will - who subjected the created being's will to His own will in hope - how can we have any will that is not ultimately subjected to the will of our Creator??
Are we created beings and how can we as created beings with a Creator whose will is in conflict with ours... exercise our own wills freely... when our wills are subjected to His will as our Creator??
This is what it seems to come down to to me: are we created beings with a will subjected to a Creator (even when our own wills are not supreme and thus are subjected in frustration to the Supreme will of our Creator) or truly did we become gods when we fell from grace with wills that are supreme above the wills of our not-Supreme Creator??
Whose will is Supreme and whose will is frustrated by subjection to the Supreme will... when the will of man and the will of God conflict with one another??
Whether we view ourselves as created beings or as gods knowing good and evil may perhaps determine our answers.
I think this may possibly be the source of our misunderstanding as we view scripture through 2 apparently different paradigms based on whether we view ourselves as gods with supreme wills over ourselves... or created beings with God's Will Supreme over ours. This has got to effect every way we view every scripture... this self-image and this way we view inter-relationship with God.
I, like you, Preterist... see everything as hinging upon the truth that God has recreated us anew and we are a new creation. But that is a Creator-centered paradigm in which we view ourselves as created beings with God as our Creator - in the new creation.
What does God see from His point of view?? I think whatever God sees is the objectively Centered Truth.
Does this make sense to people?? That we are seeing ourselves and seeing our inter-relationship with God very differently... to be NOSAS or OSAS according to creation in God recreating us... or as "free moral agents" possessing "free will" that can create, recreate, or uncreate ourselves at the behests of our own supremacy over our created states.
Which is the "greater truth" in the "big picture" if we step back to see these diverse views from a greater distance and consider re-creation in Christ.
Points to ponder.
Grace and peace,
"LeeLee"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist
twin.spin: What exactly are you saying? I want to be clear. Are you saying that believers can be shaken in their faith but can then be restored to fellowship again through repentance and the conviction of the Holy Spirit? Or are you saying that true believers, born again from above through the matchless omnipotence of God by mighty works that completely create in us something totally other than what we were, can of our own "free" will completely UNDO all of those constitutional changes God wrought within us?
If the latter is what you believe, by what divine decree of God and by what miraculous undertaken does God undo His own creation within us? Can we, through our own power, makes ourselves UNborn again? Can we, through our own power, UNregenerate ourselves, UNjustify ourselves, UNredeem ourselves, UNadopt ourselves, UNbaptize ourselves into the body of Christ, etc.? All of these things would require as great a miraculous act on the part of God as that which brought them about in us in the first place! Do we have such power? If we did, we could then UNcreate the mountains and the seas, and the heavens, and the sun and the moon and the stars and all the galaxies!
Again, this whole issue of eternal security revolves around an inadequate and shallow understanding of the great magnitude of the foundational and constitutional changes that are wrought in a believer at salvation. We CANNOT any more change back into the Old Man and UNcreate the New than a butterfly can of its own power revert to a caterpillar.
"If any man be in Christ, he is a NEW CREATION; old things are past away; behold, ALL things are become NEW."
ALL the data of Scripture fits into this Biblical concept of the greatness of man's transformation BY God at salvation.
I suggest to you that you look at those verses you provided again and make sure you are understanding them correctly. Scripture interprets Scripture. I am sure that once-saved-always-saved proponents have given you as many if not more verses that support THEIR perspective. What do you do with them? We did NOT and could not chose Him; we do NOT and cannot UNchose Him.
If we are created beings, if the scripture is true that a created being still has a will, and that will is not able to escape it's frustration by coming out from under subjection to the Creator's will - who subjected the created being's will to His own will in hope - how can we have any will that is not ultimately subjected to the will of our Creator??
Are we created beings and how can we as created beings with a Creator whose will is in conflict with ours... exercise our own wills freely... when our wills are subjected to His will as our Creator??
twin.spin: What exactly are you saying? I want to be clear. Are you saying that believers can be shaken in their faith but can then be restored to fellowship again through repentance and the conviction of the Holy Spirit? Or are you saying that true believers, born again from above through the matchless omnipotence of God by mighty works that completely create in us something totally other than what we were, can of our own "free" will completely UNDO all of those constitutional changes God wrought within us?
Preterist
Preterist,
I first want you to know that I'm glad to be able to converse in a thread outside the Mormon topic.
First of all, it is best that we don't try to fit all the passages into a system, but let each passage speak. We are to be confident that we are among the elect from the faith the Holy Spirit has worked in us (1 Thess. 1:1-5, 2Thess. 2:13). Christians are addressed as elect (1 Peter 1:1,2, Ephesians 1:13-14)
As the elect cannot fall from faith, we still are warned about falling away, a paradox we cannot solve by reason.
Often when the Bible uses the term "call" it is referring to the effective call. At times it refers to those who are called but not chosen. You have to look at each passage. Some passages use "call" that linked to predestination, justification, glorification. Some of the same principles apply to the election of Israel that can apply to the election of individuals (such as by grace alone) so some of these passages can have two differnent lessons or objects but they must also be distinguished when being applied. In contrast, Ephesians 1 and other passages refer to individuals specifically not to nations.
"Shipwreck" as is sometimes used (falling from faith) stress that the blame lies with the individual not with God. If someone has wrecked their faith they can't be saved. No one is saved without faith. The men who did this are also referred to as delivered to Satan.
The Bible doesn't say the elect can shipwreck their faith. I simply repeat the simple biblical warning that people can fall from faith and also say the promise of God's protection. The warnings focus on our actions like the law, the promises focus on God's actions like the gospel.
Again, a Christian is part of the elect that can not fall, yet we are warned about falling away.
The two are truthful teachings, a paradox that is beyond human reason.
If you believe in Christ today and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never "eternal" at all.
My thoughts exactly! 1 John 2:19 covers this a bit. There are many other verses that cover it as well. The term is called Backsliding.
You can't say your saved and then walk away and still think your saved. When your saved you'll have a thirst for the word like no other thirst before. You can come back, you'll have to repent and trust again. If something happens to you when you "fall away" and your die, well, I dont' think it's looking good for you. There are many verses that cover backsliding.
My thoughts exactly! 1 John 2:19 covers this a bit. There are many other verses that cover it as well. The term is called Backsliding.
You can't say your saved and then walk away and still think your saved. When your saved you'll have a thirst for the word like no other thirst before. You can come back, you'll have to repent and trust again. If something happens to you when you "fall away" and your die, well, I dont' think it's looking good for you. There are many verses that cover backsliding.
Junos: Are we not made by God something totally new and irreversible at salvation? His mighty works that make of us a new creation cannot be undone by our "backsliding." If someone is able to "fall away" and be lost again, he was never saved in the first place.
That which is born again from above from God's mighty grace and power and which actually makes of us something new, is totally irreversible. Unrepentant sin may separate us from God's fellowship, but it will never reverse the transformational and constitutional changes He has wrought in us. The butterfly cannot revert to a caterpillar, we cannot return to our mother's womb and be born again, and we cannot revert to the old man "dead in our trespasses and sins."
In Christ, Preterist
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