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Old 06-09-2017, 06:09 PM
 
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Some people believe that Paul's view of Jesus' resurrection was that it was a non-bodily, spiritual resurrection based on the fact that in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 he makes no mention of the empty tomb and because in Acts 9:3-6, 22:6-11, and 26:13-19 Paul describes his encounter with the risen Jesus in terms of a vision. But what Paul says elsewhere clearly shows that he understood Jesus' resurrection to have been a physical, bodily resurrection. A glorified spiritual body to be sure, but still a material, physical body.

Paul understood that as believers we will be resurrected in the same way in which Jesus was resurrected. After all, Jesus in His resurrection was the first fruits of those who are to be resurrected in Him.
1 Cor. 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
Jesus' resurrection is a guarantee of our resurrection. Our resurrection body will be the same as Jesus'. In Romans 6:5 Paul states that our resurrection will be like Jesus'.
Rom. 6:5 For if we have been united with him in a death like His, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His.
Paul understood that it is our physical body which will be resurrected. And since our resurrection will be like Jesus' resurrection, since ours will be a physical bodily resurrection, so was Jesus'. In Romans 8:11 Jesus' resurrection is paralleled with our resurrection which Paul refers to as life being given to our mortal bodies.
Rom. 8:11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who dwells within you.
In Romans 8:23 Paul refers to our resurrection as the redemption of our body.
Rom. 8:23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
In Phil 3:21 Paul again parallels our resurrection with Jesus' resurrection and states that our body will (not be abandoned), but will be transformed into conformity with the body of Jesus' glory.
Phil. 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21] who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
It's seen then that since Paul recognized that at our resurrection life will be given to our mortal body, and that our resurrection will the same as Jesus' was, Paul understood Jesus' resurrection to be the raising of His mortal body into a glorified, but material physical body.

Paul, as did the other apostles, and as did Jews in general who believed there would be a resurrection, believed in a physical, bodily resurrection. Not all Jews believed there would be a resurrection, the Sadducees for instance. But those who looked forward to a resurrection held to a physical resurrection of the body. This is evidenced in Jewish second temple period literature such as 2 Maccabees 7:9-14; 21-23; The Apocalypse of Moses 13:3 (XXXIII:3); 4 Ezra (2 Esdras) 7:28-32; and 2 Baruch 50:2-4.


2 Maccabees

The Apocalypse of Moses

2 Esdras

The Wesley Center Online: The Book Of The Apocalypse Of Baruch The Son Of Neriah Or 2 Baruch

 
Old 06-09-2017, 07:18 PM
 
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good exposition. FWIW I would also add that Paul seems quite blunt as to the real and tragic jeopardy of Christians : IF Christ has NOT been raised from the dead: "....our preaching is USELESS and so is your faith...your faith is FUTILE and you are STILL in your sins...(and) those who have fallen asleep in Christ are LOST... if ONLY in this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people truly to be pitied." (1 Cor. 15:12-19).


IMHO Paul is talking about a Jesus who is more than just an "inspired" sage and mentor but a real Savior whose actual suffering and death (and resurrection) is not simply a useful metaphor or consoling myth but the very real deal and IF it's ONLY metaphor or myth then "traditional" Christians are apparently left on their own in this life and the next.


in the peace of Christ who has truly risen and who wishes all to rise with Him into a new life shown forth in love and forgiveness to all.

Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 06-09-2017 at 07:56 PM..
 
Old 06-09-2017, 08:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeinbandonoregon View Post
good exposition. FWIW I would also add that Paul seems quite blunt as to the real and tragic jeopardy of Christians : IF Christ has NOT been raised from the dead: "....our preaching is USELESS and so is your faith...your faith is FUTILE and you are STILL in your sins...(and) those who have fallen asleep in Christ are LOST... if ONLY in this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people truly to be pitied." (1 Cor. 15:12-19).


IMHO Paul is talking about a Jesus who is more than just an "inspired" sage and mentor but a real Savior whose actual suffering and death (and resurrection) is not simply a useful metaphor or consoling myth but the very real deal and IF it's ONLY metaphor or myth then "traditional" Christians are apparently left on their own in this life and the next.


in the peace of Christ who has truly risen and who wishes all to rise with Him into a new life shown forth in love and forgiveness to all.
Thanks George for adding that. Yes, the Christian faith rests upon the historical resurrection of Jesus. If He was not resurrected than the Christian faith is nothing but a sham. But He was resurrected as testified to by those who were eyewitnesses to the risen Jesus. After His resurrection He appeared not only to those who had been His followers during His ministry, but also appeared to those who had not believed in Him during His earthly life such as His own brother James who had thought He was crazy, but then became the leader of the Jerusalem church afterwards (and He doubtless appeared to His other brothers and sister or sisters as well), and to that persecutor of the church, Saul/Paul who as a result of His encounter with the risen Jesus on the Damascus road left behind a life in which he had it made, in order to preach the gospel message to both the Jews and the Gentiles while enduring much suffering and ultimately martyrdom.

And yes, Jesus is our Savior without Whom there is no salvation. As He said, ". . . I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me'' (John 14:6).

God bless you George.
 
Old 06-09-2017, 10:39 PM
 
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Amen and amen.......looking up and waiting for the rapture where we all get our glorified bodies......no blood in the new body, and powered by the Spirit forever.........
 
Old 06-09-2017, 11:28 PM
 
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I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me even though he died he will come to life and anyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.


Those are not my words but the words of the Lord who sent me. He commanded me what to say and how to speak and since I know His commandment is eternal life what I say is spoken just as He instructed me.
 
Old 06-09-2017, 11:34 PM
 
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The human body consists of more than just fleshly matter.
You've got to have the heart and soul to go with it!










Last edited by Jerwade; 06-09-2017 at 11:43 PM..
 
Old Yesterday, 07:34 PM
 
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Paul says the resurrection will involve "spiritual bodies" in heaven not physically raised corpses. He thought there were different "types" of bodies so it is just a non-sequitur to say that this was necessarily a physical body that could be touched as the later gospels say.

After all, Paul is the earliest and only firsthand report we have in the entire New Testament. He says the Risen Jesus "appeared" ὤφθη in 1 Cor 15:5-8. The word ὤφθη (Greek - ōphthē) is the aorist passive form of the word ὁράω (horao). Notice how this word doesn't necessarily mean physical eyesight.

horáō – properly, see, *often with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).*

Paul says Jesus was experienced through "visions" and "revelations" - 2 Cor 12:1. The appearance to Paul was a vision/revelation - Gal. 1:12-16, Acts 26:19 (not a physical encounter with a revived corpse) and he makes no distinction between what he "saw" and what the others "saw" in 1 Cor 15:5-8. He had a chance to mention the empty tomb in 1 Cor 15 when it would have greatly helped his argument but doesn't. It's only when you get to the later gospels, which are not firsthand, that you get the empty tomb and physical appearance stories. They seem to get more "physical" over time depending on what gospel you read.
 
Old Yesterday, 07:54 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KnowMoreThanYou View Post
Paul says the resurrection will involve "spiritual bodies" in heaven not physically raised corpses. He thought there were different "types" of bodies so it is just a non-sequitur to say that this was necessarily a physical body that could be touched as the later gospels say.
So I'm assuming you believe that when Jesus told His Apostles to touch him and feel that He had a physical body, He was... lying to them? playing a trick on them? What?
 
Old Yesterday, 08:26 PM
 
18,567 posts, read 14,245,534 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KnowMoreThanYou View Post
Paul says the resurrection will involve "spiritual bodies" in heaven not physically raised corpses. He thought there were different "types" of bodies so it is just a non-sequitur to say that this was necessarily a physical body that could be touched as the later gospels say.

After all, Paul is the earliest and only firsthand report we have in the entire New Testament. He says the Risen Jesus "appeared" ὤφθη in 1 Cor 15:5-8. The word ὤφθη (Greek - ōphthē) is the aorist passive form of the word ὁράω (horao). Notice how this word doesn't necessarily mean physical eyesight.

horáō – properly, see, *often with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).*

Paul says Jesus was experienced through "visions" and "revelations" - 2 Cor 12:1. The appearance to Paul was a vision/revelation - Gal. 1:12-16, Acts 26:19 (not a physical encounter with a revived corpse) and he makes no distinction between what he "saw" and what the others "saw" in 1 Cor 15:5-8. He had a chance to mention the empty tomb in 1 Cor 15 when it would have greatly helped his argument but doesn't. It's only when you get to the later gospels, which are not firsthand, that you get the empty tomb and physical appearance stories. They seem to get more "physical" over time depending on what gospel you read.
Since your thread Jesus' physical resurrection is a legend that grew over time was closed before I could submit my reply, I posted that reply in a new thread over on the religion forum. Here is the link.

Refuting the claim made by a poster that the Physical Resurrection of Jesus was a Legend that grew over time.

And by the way, my OP on this thread refutes the claim that Paul taught a non-bodily resurrection.
 
Old Yesterday, 09:03 PM
 
35,084 posts, read 23,104,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
So I'm assuming you believe that when Jesus told His Apostles to touch him and feel that He had a physical body, He was... lying to them? playing a trick on them? What?
He was validating the "carnal milk" that they needed because of their inordinate and irrational fear of Spirits. They simply were not ready for the "solid food."
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