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Old 07-05-2017, 08:34 PM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 21,837,729 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
But take a look at what Isaiah 53 is actually saying about the suffering servant and what He is doing on behalf of the transgressors.

The suffering servant was stricken, smitten of God and pierced through for OUR transgressions. He was crushed for OUR iniquities. The chastening for OUR well-being fell upon Him. The LORD cause the iniquity of us all to fall on Him. He took the stroke (of punishment) that was due the people for their trangressions. The LORD was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief if He would render Himself as a guilt offering. He poured Himself out to death bearing the sin of many, interceding for the transgressors.

All of the above is stated in Isaiah 53 and none of it can possibly apply to Israel. But all of it applies perfectly to Jesus.

In no way did Israel ever intercede for the transgressors bearing the sin of the transgressors. And how could they in light of passages such as Ezekiel 18:20 and Psalm 49:7 which state that no man can redeem his brother. However, Jesus was Himself without sin and was sent into the world as a member of the human race for the purpose of going to the cross which qualified Him and Him alone to go to the cross to die for our sins.

Nothing about Isaiah 53 implies or warrants a national interpretation. And I must stress again that the apostle Philip stated that Isaiah 53 was about Jesus, and that Jesus Himself said that it must be fulfilled in Him. Isaiah 53 is strictly a Messianic prophecy about Jesus.
That's not what it says in the Hebrew Scriptures...

 
Old 07-05-2017, 09:04 PM
 
Location: Red River Texas
22,760 posts, read 10,216,368 times
Reputation: 2278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
But take a look at what Isaiah 53 is actually saying about the suffering servant and what He is doing on behalf of the transgressors.

The suffering servant was stricken, smitten of God and pierced through for OUR transgressions. He was crushed for OUR iniquities. The chastening for OUR well-being fell upon Him. The LORD cause the iniquity of us all to fall on Him. He took the stroke (of punishment) that was due the people for their trangressions. The LORD was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief if He would render Himself as a guilt offering. He poured Himself out to death bearing the sin of many, interceding for the transgressors.

All of the above is stated in Isaiah 53 and none of it can possibly apply to Israel. But all of it applies perfectly to Jesus.

In no way did Israel ever intercede for the transgressors bearing the sin of the transgressors. And how could they in light of passages such as Ezekiel 18:20 and Psalm 49:7 which state that no man can redeem his brother. However, Jesus was Himself without sin and was sent into the world as a member of the human race for the purpose of going to the cross which qualified Him and Him alone to go to the cross to die for our sins.

Nothing about Isaiah 53 implies or warrants a national interpretation. And I must stress again that the apostle Philip stated that Isaiah 53 was about Jesus, and that Jesus Himself said that it must be fulfilled in Him. Isaiah 53 is strictly a Messianic prophecy about Jesus.
What in the world do you mean that it doesn't speak of Israel, ISRAEL became ALL those things by the hand of Christians killing and persecuting them to death.




IT CAN be spoken of one single person and that man is named,'' JUDAH.''


Judah has taken all the punishment that the world could dole out against him for 2000 years and it was QUITE the punishment and suffering of a servant who hasn't suffered more.


You think if we round them up and put them in gas chambers and furnaces will kill them all?"


Obviously not, THEY are still here, NO MATTER how long Christianity has tried to kill the keepers of God's covenants, THEY are still here.




Let's see, for 2000 years, Christianity has made the Jew a suffering servant of God who suffers because he will not betray God and the ways of God, and Judah has been the example to the world all these thousands of years, but HEY!, the people who persecuted and kill them to MAKE THEM the suffering servant DONT WANT TO ADMIT that they have been persecuting and killing the suffering servant all these thousands of years.


THAT IS TYPICAL of murderers who will rationalize why they had to torture and kill somebody else, and after they have finished torturing and killing everyone who loves the commandments of God, they look back at the dead and proclaim,'' NO, These aren't the suffering servant, Jesus is the suffering servant, Just because I torture and kill the whole family of Jesus doesn't mean they are the suffering servant, EVEN though I have made them suffer, EVEN though I have tortured and killed them for 2000 years, DON"T LET THEM CLAIM TO BE THE SUFFERING SERVANT, THEY DIDN'T SUFFER, I JUST TORTURED AND KILLED THEM IN THE NAME OF JESUS, THAT AINT SUFFERING.''


O NO, They aren't the suffering servant of God who walks in the commandments of God, O No, their suffering doesn't count.
 
Old 07-06-2017, 05:46 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,892 posts, read 26,117,318 times
Reputation: 16023
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
What in the world do you mean that it doesn't speak of Israel, ISRAEL became ALL those things by the hand of Christians killing and persecuting them to death.




IT CAN be spoken of one single person and that man is named,'' JUDAH.''


Judah has taken all the punishment that the world could dole out against him for 2000 years and it was QUITE the punishment and suffering of a servant who hasn't suffered more.


You think if we round them up and put them in gas chambers and furnaces will kill them all?"


Obviously not, THEY are still here, NO MATTER how long Christianity has tried to kill the keepers of God's covenants, THEY are still here.




Let's see, for 2000 years, Christianity has made the Jew a suffering servant of God who suffers because he will not betray God and the ways of God, and Judah has been the example to the world all these thousands of years, but HEY!, the people who persecuted and kill them to MAKE THEM the suffering servant DONT WANT TO ADMIT that they have been persecuting and killing the suffering servant all these thousands of years.


THAT IS TYPICAL of murderers who will rationalize why they had to torture and kill somebody else, and after they have finished torturing and killing everyone who loves the commandments of God, they look back at the dead and proclaim,'' NO, These aren't the suffering servant, Jesus is the suffering servant, Just because I torture and kill the whole family of Jesus doesn't mean they are the suffering servant, EVEN though I have made them suffer, EVEN though I have tortured and killed them for 2000 years, DON"T LET THEM CLAIM TO BE THE SUFFERING SERVANT, THEY DIDN'T SUFFER, I JUST TORTURED AND KILLED THEM IN THE NAME OF JESUS, THAT AINT SUFFERING.''


O NO, They aren't the suffering servant of God who walks in the commandments of God, O No, their suffering doesn't count.
The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus, not to Israel. Jesus Himself said it referred to Him, as did the apostle Philip.
 
Old 07-06-2017, 06:23 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,892 posts, read 26,117,318 times
Reputation: 16023
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
But take a look at what Isaiah 53 is actually saying about the suffering servant and what He is doing on behalf of the transgressors.

The suffering servant was stricken, smitten of God and pierced through for OUR transgressions. He was crushed for OUR iniquities. The chastening for OUR well-being fell upon Him. The LORD cause the iniquity of us all to fall on Him. He took the stroke (of punishment) that was due the people for their trangressions. The LORD was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief if He would render Himself as a guilt offering. He poured Himself out to death bearing the sin of many, interceding for the transgressors.

All of the above is stated in Isaiah 53 and none of it can possibly apply to Israel. But all of it applies perfectly to Jesus.

In no way did Israel ever intercede for the transgressors bearing the sin of the transgressors. And how could they in light of passages such as Ezekiel 18:20 and Psalm 49:7 which state that no man can redeem his brother. However, Jesus was Himself without sin and was sent into the world as a member of the human race for the purpose of going to the cross which qualified Him and Him alone to go to the cross to die for our sins.

Nothing about Isaiah 53 implies or warrants a national interpretation. And I must stress again that the apostle Philip stated that Isaiah 53 was about Jesus, and that Jesus Himself said that it must be fulfilled in Him. Isaiah 53 is strictly a Messianic prophecy about Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
That's not what it says in the Hebrew Scriptures...
Yes it is, and here are portions of Isaiah 53 from the Tanach.

From the Tanach. Isaiah 53.

4. Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.

5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.

8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.

11. From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.

12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

Yeshayahu - Isaiah - Chapter 53 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible


8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.

Here, from the Tanach, in verse 8, in context, the suffering servant is contrasted with 'my people' [Israel]. The suffering servant was cut off from the land of the living because of the transgression of Israel and therefore the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is NOT Israel.
 
Old 07-06-2017, 08:26 AM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
21,088 posts, read 29,052,595 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
That's not what it says in the Hebrew Scriptures...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Yes it is, and here are portions of Isaiah 53 from the Tanach.

From the Tanach. Isaiah 53.

4. Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.

5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.

8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.

11. From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.

12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

Yeshayahu - Isaiah - Chapter 53 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible


8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.

Here, from the Tanach, in verse 8, in context, the suffering servant is contrasted with 'my people' [Israel]. The suffering servant was cut off from the land of the living because of the transgression of Israel and therefore the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is NOT Israel.

Fundamentalist gonna tell a Jew what the Hebrew scriptures really means..
Attached Thumbnails
Isaiah 53 and the Suffering Righteous Servant who dies for the sin of the Transgressors-wrong_all.jpg  
 
Old 07-06-2017, 08:30 AM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
21,088 posts, read 29,052,595 times
Reputation: 7812
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
I remind you Philip shared Jesus with the Ethiopian eunuch, using Isaiah 53. It's about Jesus.
Please, present WITNESSES that were there and then WROTE about it..not scribes who were centuries removed..at least show us the ORIGINAL manuscripts.
 
Old 07-06-2017, 08:58 AM
Status: "Without God, life is tragic and absurd." (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,367 posts, read 12,647,775 times
Reputation: 2472
Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
Please, present WITNESSES that were there and then WROTE about it..not scribes who were centuries removed..at least show us the ORIGINAL manuscripts.
You're a hypocrite. You post scripture to make your point, but don't allow others the same.

The prophets, Jesus and the apostles all claimed Jesus was the messiah. Your only hope is tearing down holy scripture (except when convenient to you).
 
Old 07-06-2017, 09:01 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,892 posts, read 26,117,318 times
Reputation: 16023
Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
Fundamentalist gonna tell a Jew what the Hebrew scriptures really means..
Many Jews recognize that Isaiah 53 cannot be given a national interpretation but instead refers to an individual. As a matter of fact I already posted what Messianic Jew Michael Brown said about Isaiah 53 in post #16.

The fact of the matter is that most Jews don't know the Bible any better than most Christians.
 
Old 07-06-2017, 09:06 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,892 posts, read 26,117,318 times
Reputation: 16023
Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
Please, present WITNESSES that were there and then WROTE about it..not scribes who were centuries removed..at least show us the ORIGINAL manuscripts.
Luke, who in the book of Acts recorded what Philip said was not centuries removed from the eyewitnesses but very likely wrote Acts as early as the early 60's and very well could have interviewed Philip.

Furthermore, most New Testament textual critics recognize that what has been passed down to us by way of the manuscript copies is 99 percent or more faithful to the original New Testament autographs.
 
Old 07-06-2017, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,818,641 times
Reputation: 1869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Explain this then:

10 And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
Funny, the version I read says "10Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makesc his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11After he has suffered,
he will see the light of lifed and be satisfiede ;
by his knowledgef my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,

Let's check:The word seems to be conditional and the happy result of the conditional action. The analysis depends on the proper translation of the required action. It would appear that making the offering for sin is that action and the good things listed will come to the "suffering servant" because he does so.
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