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I am absolutely positive that I am not magic. So I can't believe or have faith
in a book or books that tells me to believe that I am magic. So I believe Jesus
was a good man maybe, but no more. And all the rest of the bible relies on my
believing that humans are magic, which I know that I at least, am not. I do like
Ecclesiastes very much tho.
You are ascribing YOUR IDEAS of what the MOTIVE OF HIS HEART IS, nothing more. G-d is a PURE MOTIVE, regardless of what it APPEARS to YOU to be. The real problem here is you never developed the fear of the Lord which is the beginning of wisdom. You are the pot, and He is the potter, and if He decided to wipe everyone off the face of the earth He could do it and be 100% justified in doing so, BECAUSE HE MADE US TO BEGIN WITH AND WE ARE SUBJECT TO HIM, NOT HIM TO US. THAT, is what you have never learned, and will go no farther until you do learn it, as you continue to feather your comfy nest for the Jezebel spirit's repose. Peace
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
There you go, Pleroo: basic instructions on how to turn off your mind and join the cult.
This is deserving of a Shirina post:
I find it rather sad that any Christian would think so little about the very God he worships. So let me break it down for you -- as I've done with every other Christian who has the same beliefs as you do.
Problem 1: "God CAN do what he wants."
If God can do what he wants, it means God has no moral compass and therefore can't be trusted. One may as well put your life (and eternal soul) into the hands of a sociopath. If God has the right to murder you for any whismical reason he comes up with, then he also has the right to lie to you, to deceive you, to coerse you into worshiping him. It means that God might be lying to you about Heaven. Perhaps everyone goes to Hell because of Original Sin, but God wants your love and worship and thus says whatever he has to in order to obtain it.
Why not? If God has no moral code and can do whatever the hell he wants with no consequences, how can God be trusted to tell the truth ... about anything whatsoever?
Problem 2: "God CAN do what he wants." The question here is whether or not God *actually* does what he wants. Just because CAN do what he wants doesn't mean he will.
Unfortunately, going by what the Bible says, yes, God does do precisely what he wants even if it flies in the face of humanity's idea of what it means to be good, just, fair, loving, and forgiving. If sending two bears to tear apart 42 little children merely because they called Elisha "old baldhead" (2 Kings 2:23-25) can be considered good, just, fair, loving, and forgiving, morality itself is literally turned on its head.
This one incident (and there are oodles of other examples) shows that God behaves more like a psychopath than a magnificent being with a rigid moral system that he, himself, decided was worth following. One cannot be inherently good while simultaneously committing heinous, atrocious acts of barbarity. One cannot make the claim that an act of pure evil suddenly becomes a justified act of goodness just because God was the one who committed the act. Morality exists independently of the actor -- the nature of the act does not change depending on who the actor is.
This would be the equivalent of saying the Holocaust was evil only because it was Hitler who caused it. But if Mother Theresa had orchestrated the Holocaust, well then, the Holocaust was a good and justified act because Mother Theresa was inherently good. Surely you can see that this is a truly twisted way of seeing morality.
Problem 3: "And our small minds are not able to, nor should the [sic.] be worthy of judging him."
Wrong.
First of all, you're judging him, as well. You're judging God to be a whole host of things: perfect, good, omnipotent, loving, fair, just, honest, etc. etc. etc.
Those are judgments. They might be positive judgments, but they are still judgments.
Secondly, the concept of humans having puny, unworthy minds in comparison to God doesn't get God off the hook in this case.
Here's why: If God's moral compass is so alien to we humans that sending bears to murder 42 little kids for a stupidly petty reason becomes acceptable behavior, then we're essentially back to problem 1.
In other words, God's moral compass is so beyond our ken that God's morality becomes unpredictable. If we cannot judge God by our own standards of right and wrong, good and evil -- moral standards that ostensibly COME from God, I should point out -- then we still have no idea if God can be trusted.
Perhaps, by his alien, unfathomable moral code, lying to humans or deceiving us to obtain love and worship is perfectly acceptable behavior. It still means that there's no reason to trust God or to believe even a single word that comes out of his divine pie-hole.
Oh sure, you can retreat back to the ages-old "faith" argument and claim that God would never do such a thing. Except ... you can't know that. Oh, and by saying he would never lie to us, well, guess what, there you go judging God again.
The fact is that if God can and does do whatever he wants -- or if God's morality is simply too alien for us to understand, then there is absolutely no reason to believe that God is trustworthy. Having "faith" that he *is* trustworthy despite the horrific atrocities God either committed himself or told others to do in his name is just plain lunacy.
It is cognitive dissonance at its finest.
Morality cannot be "whatever God wants it to be at any particular time" otherwise the word "morality" itself has no meaning. It's just a word to describe the whimsy and arbitrary actions of a God you've trapped yourself into *having* to believe is both perfect and moral at the same time. Thus, even though you have to know in the back of your mind that what I'm saying is true, you'll still try to deny it and justify God's evil antics with weak and ultimately destructive arguments like the one you presented here.
@ Pleroo...not wasting space reposting the blood of bitterness, but glad you revealed the heart of your "faith" which is obviously atheism, which, oddly enough, you don't find difficult at all apparently to "reconcile" with the spirit of "love" you all talk about. Peace
@ Pleroo...not wasting space reposting the blood of bitterness, but glad you revealed the heart of your "faith" which is obviously atheism, which, oddly enough, you don't find difficult at all apparently to "reconcile" with the spirit of "love" you all talk about. Peace
This is deserving of a Shirina post:
I find it rather sad that any Christian would think so little about the very God he worships. So let me break it down for you -- as I've done with every other Christian who has the same beliefs as you do.
Problem 1: "God CAN do what he wants."
If God can do what he wants, it means God has no moral compass and therefore can't be trusted. One may as well put your life (and eternal soul) into the hands of a sociopath. If God has the right to murder you for any whismical reason he comes up with, then he also has the right to lie to you, to deceive you, to coerse you into worshiping him. It means that God might be lying to you about Heaven. Perhaps everyone goes to Hell because of Original Sin, but God wants your love and worship and thus says whatever he has to in order to obtain it.
Why not? If God has no moral code and can do whatever the hell he wants with no consequences, how can God be trusted to tell the truth ... about anything whatsoever?
Problem 2: "God CAN do what he wants." The question here is whether or not God *actually* does what he wants. Just because CAN do what he wants doesn't mean he will.
Unfortunately, going by what the Bible says, yes, God does do precisely what he wants even if it flies in the face of humanity's idea of what it means to be good, just, fair, loving, and forgiving. If sending two bears to tear apart 42 little children merely because they called Elisha "old baldhead" (2 Kings 2:23-25) can be considered good, just, fair, loving, and forgiving, morality itself is literally turned on its head.
This one incident (and there are oodles of other examples) shows that God behaves more like a psychopath than a magnificent being with a rigid moral system that he, himself, decided was worth following. One cannot be inherently good while simultaneously committing heinous, atrocious acts of barbarity. One cannot make the claim that an act of pure evil suddenly becomes a justified act of goodness just because God was the one who committed the act. Morality exists independently of the actor -- the nature of the act does not change depending on who the actor is.
This would be the equivalent of saying the Holocaust was evil only because it was Hitler who caused it. But if Mother Theresa had orchestrated the Holocaust, well then, the Holocaust was a good and justified act because Mother Theresa was inherently good. Surely you can see that this is a truly twisted way of seeing morality.
Problem 3: "And our small minds are not able to, nor should the [sic.] be worthy of judging him."
Wrong.
First of all, you're judging him, as well. You're judging God to be a whole host of things: perfect, good, omnipotent, loving, fair, just, honest, etc. etc. etc.
Those are judgments. They might be positive judgments, but they are still judgments.
Secondly, the concept of humans having puny, unworthy minds in comparison to God doesn't get God off the hook in this case.
Here's why: If God's moral compass is so alien to we humans that sending bears to murder 42 little kids for a stupidly petty reason becomes acceptable behavior, then we're essentially back to problem 1.
In other words, God's moral compass is so beyond our ken that God's morality becomes unpredictable. If we cannot judge God by our own standards of right and wrong, good and evil -- moral standards that ostensibly COME from God, I should point out -- then we still have no idea if God can be trusted.
Perhaps, by his alien, unfathomable moral code, lying to humans or deceiving us to obtain love and worship is perfectly acceptable behavior. It still means that there's no reason to trust God or to believe even a single word that comes out of his divine pie-hole.
Oh sure, you can retreat back to the ages-old "faith" argument and claim that God would never do such a thing. Except ... you can't know that. Oh, and by saying he would never lie to us, well, guess what, there you go judging God again.
The fact is that if God can and does do whatever he wants -- or if God's morality is simply too alien for us to understand, then there is absolutely no reason to believe that God is trustworthy. Having "faith" that he *is* trustworthy despite the horrific atrocities God either committed himself or told others to do in his name is just plain lunacy.
It is cognitive dissonance at its finest.
Morality cannot be "whatever God wants it to be at any particular time" otherwise the word "morality" itself has no meaning. It's just a word to describe the whimsy and arbitrary actions of a God you've trapped yourself into *having* to believe is both perfect and moral at the same time. Thus, even though you have to know in the back of your mind that what I'm saying is true, you'll still try to deny it and justify God's evil antics with weak and ultimately destructive arguments like the one you presented here.
"Once again, the spirit always exalts the one that sent it. Pleroo just posted a lovely discourse by an atheist, which you agree with, based on your posts. Once again proving that the way you test the spirits is by WHOM they exalt. We're done here. Peace"
"Once again, the spirit always exalts the one that sent it. Pleroo just posted a lovely discourse by an atheist, which you agree with, based on your posts. Once again proving that the way you test the spirits is by WHOM they exalt. We're done here. Peace"
"Once again, the spirit always exalts the one that sent it. Pleroo just posted a lovely discourse by an atheist, which you agree with, based on your posts. Once again proving that the way you test the spirits is by WHOM they exalt. We're done here. Peace"
You never answered how this "test" would show a lying spirit which is exalting a false image of God and you refuse to use the only valid method of testing the spirits BY the clear descriptions of the nature of that Spirit.
This tells me all I need to know about the spirit that guides you (If I couldn't already see it in the nature of your posts).
You never answered how this "test" would show a lying spirit which is exalting a false image of God and you refuse to use the only valid method of testing the spirits BY the clear descriptions of the nature of that Spirit.
This tells me all I need to know about the spirit that guides you (If I couldn't already see it in the nature of your posts).
Only if you're deaf and blind could you not hear it and see it. Ask for the hearing ear, and the eyes of your understanding to be opened. I'll agree with you in that prayer. Peace
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