Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Read and this and then ask that question again.....if you can with a straight face.
Stephen says by the context, (and therefore the author, "Luke", likewise says), that the Torah contains the Living Oracles, Living Sayings, Living Words which Moses and the fathers received to give to the people:
Acts 7:37-38
37 This is that same Moshe who said to the sons of Yisrael, "YHWH your Elohim shall raise up a Prophet unto you from among your brethren, like unto me."
38 This is the one who was in the congregation in the desert, with the Messenger-Angel who spoke to him in mount Sinai, and to our fathers, who received Living Oracles [λογια ζωντα] to give to us:
λογια ζωντα = Living Oracles / Living Sayings / Living Words = the Torah
Romans 3:1-2
1 What advantage then has the Yhudi? or what is the profit of circumcision?
2 Much every way: first of all, that they were entrusted with the Oracles of Elohim [τα λογια του θεου].
τα λογια του θεου = the Oracles-Sayings-Words of Elohim(God)
Hebrews 5:12-13
12 For when by reason of the time you ought to be teachers, you rather have need again that someone teach you the rudiments of the first principles of the Oracles of Elohim, [των λογιων του θεου] and are become such as have need of milk, and not of solid food:
13 For every one partaking of milk is inexperienced in theWord of Righteousness, [λογου δικαιοσυνης] for he is a babe.
των λογιων του θεου ~ the Oracles of Elohim(God)
λογου δικαιοσυνης ~ the Word of Righteousness
And by the context:
των λογιων του θεου = λογου δικαιοσυνης
Therefore, I say, the Living Torah is the Living Testimony of the Living Father, and therefore the Living Torah is His Living Son: for Testimony is Spirit according to the Testimony of the Son, (John 6:63). And therefore those who "abolish" the Torah from their own hearts and minds do likewise at the same time "abolish" the Son of Elohim from their own hearts and minds: for the Son of Elohim is himself the Living Oracles, Living Sayings, and Living Words of Elohim which are the Torah. And because of these things having been plainly written, in manifold New Testament passages as shown above: this is the teaching of all of the Apostolic authors and their writings. In other words this is not just "my opinion" but that of Stephen, who according to the author of Acts was full of the Holy Spirit, (even saying that his face shown as that of an angel before the council, Acts 6:15), and therefore it is the "opinion" of the author of Acts, "Luke", and therefore likewise Paul, and likewise the author of the epistle to the Hebrews as shown above, and Peter likewise speaks in the same terms and manner concerning the Oracles of Elohim, (1Peter 4:11).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
Who wrote that for you, daqq?
Quote:
Originally Posted by daqq
Yeah, Rbbi1 asked me to say more about it when I brought up "the Living Oracles" of Elohim, which in the Acts passage clearly means the Torah, (the post is back on Pg 38, Reply #376). Just as Paul says, the Torah is spiritual and supernal, not for neanderthals*, (lol), because they only trample it anyways just as they do with the Testimony of the Messiah and all the scripture.
*neanderthal: one who says the Tanakh was written by neanderthals.
I don't think anyone believes it was written by Neanderthals, literally. Perhaps, it's a matter of perception. And there is nothing wrong with milk and honey, however it appears to me that the Spirit has been given as a guide, so no one could boast having their own private or group interpretations, as the Spirit touches the heart of each of us individually in various ways. Personally, I find it unnecessary to follow 613 laws which can be covered under the living words of Christ that instruct us to love GOD and ONE ANOTHER. What’s amazing is how people denounce this as being first and foremost.
That is not what it is saying at all. I agree that when on the odd occasion he referenced the scripture he spoke it it was life, because nothing he said was not life.
Verse 6 cleary states it is NOT of the letter but OF the Spirit. So Jesus Christ ministered by the Spirit and not how you are suggesting by the Spirit of the letter because it was not OF the letter. So it is not me taking it out of context it is you adding to it. One is passing away while the other is becoming more glorious as it takes root and grows in all who acknowledge and turn to the Lord.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
In other words, don't conflate the letter with the Word.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
Exactly, Jesus said new wine needs to be in new wine skins.
I don't think anyone believes it was written by Neanderthals, literally. Perhaps, it's a matter of perception. And there is nothing wrong with milk and honey, however it appears to me that the Spirit has been given as a guide, so no one could boast having their own private or group interpretations, as the Spirit touches the heart of each of us individually in various ways. Personally, I find it unnecessary to follow 613 laws which can be covered under the living words of Christ that instruct us to love GOD and ONE ANOTHER. What’s amazing is how people denounce this as being first and foremost.
In the context of what things we speak, (the scripture), one cannot have the "milk and honey" unless the same is in the Land of milk and honey, (it is a state of mind). Moreover I said nothing about 613 laws of the Jews so it is not correct for you to try to pin me with such a label. And, yes, there are those who have suggested such nonsense as that the "Old Testament" was written by and for proverbial neanderthals. You have been here much longer than I have, and yet, I can see it while you cannot see it?
In the context of what things we speak, (the scripture), one cannot have the "milk and honey" unless the same is in the Land of milk and honey, (it is a state of mind). Moreover I said nothing about 613 laws of the Jews so it is not correct for you to try to pin me with such a label. And, yes, there are those who have suggested such nonsense as that the "Old Testament" was written by and for proverbial neanderthals. You have been here much longer than I have, and yet, I can see it while you cannot see it?
"Primitive" perceptions, or even "barbaric" were terms applied to ideas in Tanakh such as commaning genocide. As fae as Torah, I'd say applied to such commandments as stoning to death for ANY reason.
It's a bit hard to say where you stand on the mitzvot since they are part of Torah, Maybe you can elucidate.
That was part of the initial point: the "mind of Messiah" is his Testimony, not what someone thinks in the machinations of his or her own imagination and then attributes to some "spirit" which he or she then gives the label, "Jesus", or "God". What is written is what counts, first and foremost, otherwise anyone can say that the scripture means whatever they want it to say because "the Spirit" told them so. That means nothing more than that someone has put the label of "Jesus" or "God" on their own spirit of the world so as to justify themselves and their beliefs. It is fraudulent because the same people ignore what is actually written in favor of the machinations of their own vain imaginations and call it "true Christianity", "love", "the mind of Christ", or whatever. The "mind of the Messiah" is his Testimony which is WRITTEN. All words of truth may result in death or life, depending on the hearer, that is why I said to someone else that the letters of Paul work the same way as far as "the letter killing", for those who read and search his words with a genuine heart will find life in them; but those who twist them do so to their own detriment, and those who twist them intentionally for their own purposes are dead because while there may be some light in them, it is darkness, being knowledge without the Logos-Reasoning of the Messiah whom Paul preaches, ("If the light that is in you be darkness; how great is that darkness!"). Moreover no one has said anything about how Stephen calls the Torah "Living Oracles-Sayings-Words", or the fact that if the Torah is LIVING then no one can abolish HIM except but in his or her own heart, mind, eyes, and soul, which is death because no one can kill Spirit and especially not the Son of Elohim, and therefore I said something like the following already once:
"Abolish the Torah" = "Abolish the Son of Elohim"...
For testimony is SPIRIT, and just as the Master says, his own words are Spirit and they are Life. Moreover he expounds the Torah in all of his doctrines, parables, proverbs, sayings, and idioms, which are found written in the Gospel accounts and the Torah and Prophets. Most here are simply arguing from nothing more than their own private opinions which, if they are not supported by what the scripture actually says and teaches, are worthless. In other words you cannot toss out what is written and then say that you have the Spirit of God or His Son when your doctrine flies in the face of the very Word of Elohim who is His Son. There is a reason why the Son of Elohim is called the Memra-Logos-Reasoning-Word of Elohim: for it concerns not only what is written but at the same time the logos-reasoning within what is written. If one does not have and hold what is written in uprightness and truth then the same does not have the logos-reasoning of the Word, plain and simple, and is simply interjecting his or her own worldly reasoning into what is written, while sidelining what is actually written, which is precisely what is occurring in this thread and most others. It is the dialectic antithesis form of argument which is designed for nothing more than to obfuscate, remove what is written from its own context, and sideline the Logos-Reasoning in what is WRITTEN.
I agree, so let me ask this.
Does all the law hang on love God and each other?
If so then are not those who teach love God and each other also teaching the law?
Is not the litmus test of the spirit love of God and each other?
This is part of the disconnect I am seeing, some are teaching the law/torah without understanding that it is the law/torah they are teaching.
"Law" is particulars intended to implement principles, but sometimes misunderstood as in the mitzvah about seething a kid in its mother's milk. When we understand and implement the principle intended we "fulfill the Law."
That is not what it is saying at all. I agree that when on the odd occasion he referenced the scripture he spoke it it was life, because nothing he said was not life.
Verse 6 cleary states it is NOT of the letter but OF the Spirit. So Jesus Christ ministered by the Spirit and not how you are suggesting by the Spirit of the letter because it was not OF the letter. So it is not me taking it out of context it is you adding to it. One is passing away while the other is becoming more glorious as it takes root and grows in all who acknowledge and turn to the Lord.
Camps that is because we are to become a spiritual people, not a people of the letter.
"Primitive" perceptions, or even "barbaric" were terms applied to ideas in Tanakh such as commaning genocide. As fae as Torah, I'd say applied to such commandments as stoning to death for ANY reason.
It's a bit hard to say where you stand on the mitzvot since they are part of Torah, Maybe you can elucidate.
By stoning to death, is this like when a young shepherd slings a chosen stone. And conquered the so called giant.
Who are you to speak against the Lord of Host. And his ways.
Ah, if only you knew.
Your heart might not waver on the day he knocks. Though it may be too late. Far from me to know a thing such as this.
Yet I've read and seen your post. And am reminded of a rueven and the turmoil of water. What stone are you going to seek?
"I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
In the context of what things we speak, (the scripture), one cannot have the "milk and honey" unless the same is in the Land of milk and honey, (it is a state of mind). Moreover I said nothing about 613 laws of the Jews so it is not correct for you to try to pin me with such a label. And, yes, there are those who have suggested such nonsense as that the "Old Testament" was written by and for proverbial neanderthals. You have been here much longer than I have, and yet, I can see it while you cannot see it?
Dagg that is because they are looking at the law in letter instead of spiritually.
If I was to take the letter literally I would say it was barbaric also.
What it seem to me that is happening is that those who are taking what is spiritual as literal still retain the fundie mindset with regards to the OT, that is to say they are equating the OT literally instead of spiritually.
This is why imo the fundamentalist mind set is so dangerous as it views everything written as literal instead of spiritual.
By stoning to death, is this like when a young shepherd slings a chosen stone. And conquered the so called giant.
Who are you to speak against the Lord of Host. And his ways.
.....
No, slings were used as weapons of war, stoning was done be people picking up rocks and throwing them at the "offender" until he or she was beaten to death.
I am absolutely NO ONE to speak against the Lord of Hosts and His ways, but I am also not one to stand by when others do so by attributing such barbarous perceptuion to Him.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
