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2nd Timothy 3:16 has created more idolotors of the bible than ever existed for Baal.
I disagree with Richard (for whom I have great respect) as to his assessment about Jesus NOT dying for the sins of the world. I take a different view on "works" too. Rather than being necessary to get to heaven, I follow Paul and James both.
Is there a conflict between Paul and James over the matter of justification by faith versus works (compare Rom. 3:24, 28; James 2:18-26)? Both men are saying the same thing from different angles to address different issues. Paul was attacking the Pharisaic idea that our good works will commend us to God. He argues that no one can ever be good enough to earn salvation. God justifies guilty sinners through the work of Christ. But James was attacking the view that saving faith does not necessarily result in good works. He shows that genuine faith always produces good works.
Yaaqov(james
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
1 Kings 17:7-16New International Version (NIV)
Elijah and the Widow at Zarephath
7 Some time later the brook dried up because there had been no rain in the land. 8 Then the word of the Lord came to him: 9 “Go at once to Zarephath in the region of Sidon and stay there. I have directed a widow there to supply you with food.” 10 So he went to Zarephath. When he came to the town gate, a widow was there gathering sticks. He called to her and asked, “Would you bring me a little water in a jar so I may have a drink?” 11 As she was going to get it, he called, “And bring me, please, a piece of bread.”
12 “As surely as the Lord your God lives,” she replied, “I don’t have any bread—only a handful of flour in a jar and a little olive oil in a jug. I am gathering a few sticks to take home and make a meal for myself and my son, that we may eat it—and die.”
13 Elijah said to her, “Don’t be afraid. Go home and do as you have said. But first make a small loaf of bread for me from what you have and bring it to me, and then make something for yourself and your son. 14 For this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘The jar of flour will not be used up and the jug of oil will not run dry until the day the Lord sends rain on the land.’”
15 She went away and did as Elijah had told her. So there was food every day for Elijah and for the woman and her family. 16 For the jar of flour was not used up and the jug of oil did not run dry, in keeping with the word of the Lord spoken by Elijah.
The elder shall serve the younger
Romans 9(ole paul)
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
You don't seem to be catching on, Jeaniee. AT THE TIME Paul wrote 2 Timothy the ONLY SCRIPTURE available to him/those of his day was the Torah.
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Originally Posted by Jeaniee
I read this, yes. And if you read my response again, you'd see it.
All I see is something from you that makes no sense.
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Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
Paul's letters were NOT scripture ...they were letters.
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Originally Posted by Jeaniee
The only reason you even know about Paul's letters is BECAUSE they are scripture, God breathed, God ordained, use-ful for CORRECTION which is what i am doing right now. God used Paul to teach us all about the church he set up on earth. How to conduct ourselves. Basically Paul is our accountability so to just toss him out may seem convienent, but it doesn't make a Christian. Because that is not what Christians do.
Where have I 'tossed out Paul'? And, are you saying that the ones who collated what did and what did not appear in the New Testament were also under divine guidance? No offense, Jeaniee, but you're not using much common sense. You've evidently been pretty much programmed to going into a defensive position whenever someone attempts to put you right on Bible matters. But, this is all to no avail on this particular issue anyway. It's not that I'm implying that Paul was not someone who played an important role in getting the Gospel message out to the Gentiles. All I am saying is that Paul's letters are NOT scripture but ARE letters and that the particular text you keep raising is referring to the Torah. That said, I admit that "I" also often refer to texts from the Bible as 'scripture' for the sake of ease. But this doesn't necessarily mean that I believe every text to be 'God-breathed' ...or any of the Bible for that matter. I have no idea what is 'God-breathed' and what is not. Nor do you.
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Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
How could Paul have POSSIBLY known that these letters would EVENTUALLY finish up in a canon known as the New Testament?
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Originally Posted by Jeaniee
This is a deflection. This is not scripture so I am not going to get concerned over it.
How come my posts are not regarded as 'scripture', Jeaniee? What source tells you that my quotes are not 'God-breathed' but that Paul's quotes are? Would my quotes need to be collated into a 'holy book' by mere mortals (as with the Bible) before you believed that they are 'God-breathed'? Is that the way it works?
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Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
Anyway, ALL SCRIPTURE refers solely to the scriptures contained in the Torah ...NOT the letters of Paul.
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Originally Posted by Jeaniee
To a Christian, the bible is scripture.
Not just one sentence of it, but the entire bible.
Yes, that is what has been implanted in your mind. Unfortunately, common sense often suffers in order to make room in the mind for bogus 'beliefs'.
As has already been pointed out by Richard1965, the New Testament isn't (or wasn't) the scripture that is referred to in 2 Timothy 3:16. Paul wasn't even writing scripture - or, at least, HE didn't know that he was writing scripture. He was merely writing letters to the early Christian Churches. All they had available back in the day was the Torah. The letters of Paul and other manuscripts were much later collated into what eventually became the New Testament. "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" is referring to the Torah and not the new Testament which had not yet even been thought of.
Why is it that Christians SO often quote 2 Timothy 3:16 without giving a thought as to what it's actually referring to?
On the contrary. Paul indicates that he knew he was writing scripture. Or to put it another way, Paul understood that what he and the other apostles taught, both orally and in writing was the word of God, and he states as much. Whether or not Paul knew that his letters would become part of a New Testament canon at a later date is irrelevant. Paul stated that what he taught was not the word of men, but the word of God.
1 Thess. 2:13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.
If he believed that what he taught orally was the word of God rather than the word of men then he believed no less about what he wrote. And he said that the mode of delivery, whether by spoken word or by letter made no difference regarding the divine authority by which he taught.
2 Thess. 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.
Paul recognized his apostolic authority and that what he wrote was the Lord's commandment.
1 Cor. 14:37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. 38] If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
Paul was confident of his God given authority but did not want what he wrote to frighten the recipients of his letters.
2 Cor. 10:8 For even if I boast somewhat further about our authority, which the Lord gave for building you up and not for destroying you, I will not be put to shame, 9] for I do not wish to seem as if I would terrify you by my letters.
Paul very well then could have had his own earlier letters in mind when he wrote 2 Timothy 3:16 which was the last of his letters to be written. Now if you personally don't want to accept Paul's letters as scripture, or as the word of God, that's on you. But to say that Paul did not consider his letters to be scripture, to by invested with divine authority by virtue of being the word of God is simply not true and is so indicated by Paul himself.
Stepping away from Paul, let's take a brief look at the book of Revelation which most scholars date to ca. AD. 95 (and which I am therefore not claiming that Paul had it in mind when he wrote 2 Timothy 3:16). The author is John. He specifically states that it is
''The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave Him to show His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw'' (Revelation 1:1-2).
John then certainly believed that what he wrote was scripture whether or not you personally accept it as such.
By the way, a very good argument can be made that the synoptic gospels, as well as the book of Acts, were written by the early 60's in which case they could have been written during Paul's lifetime. If so, then Paul could have had them in mind as well when he wrote 2 Timothy 3:16. And indeed, Paul does appear to quote Luke's gospel (1 Timothy 5:18 with reference to Luke 10:7) and calls it scripture. Luke's statement, ''for the laborer is worthy of his wages'' is not found in any Old Testament passage. But that wasn't one of the reasons I had in mind when I said that a very good argument can be made that the synoptic gospels and Acts were written by the early 60's.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-12-2017 at 10:51 PM..
However, G-d says that no man can die for another man's sins, that each man shall die for his own sins...G-d also says that He abhors human sacrifice...So, the man Jesus being sacrificed for all sins is in direct violation of what G-d has stated in Torah...
He wasn't a sacrifice: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
He wasn't a sacrifice: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
Your opinion is in direct opposition to what the Biblical writers state, which is that Jesus was a sacrifice. Just a few: Ephesians 5:2; Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 10:10,12; and 1 John 2:2.
Why should anyone believe your opinion over against the statements of the New Testament writers?
He wasn't a sacrifice: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Your opinion is in direct opposition to what the Biblical writers state, which is that Jesus was a sacrifice. Just a few: Ephesians 5:2; Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 10:10,12; and 1 John 2:2.
Why should anyone believe your opinion over against the statements of the New Testament writers?
He refused to retaliate against those who sought to murder him, exemplifying a greater love for humanity.
You believe he was immolated, killed or offered as a sacrifice (penal substitution) to cover over your sin.
Your opinion is in direct opposition to what the Biblical writers state, which is that Jesus was a sacrifice. Just a few: Ephesians 5:2; Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 10:10,12; and 1 John 2:2.
Why should anyone believe your opinion over against the statements of the New Testament writers?
Why should anyone believe the opinions of the New Testament writers over against the Torah of G-d?...
Your opinion is in direct opposition to what the Biblical writers state, which is that Jesus was a sacrifice. Just a few: Ephesians 5:2; Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 10:10,12; and 1 John 2:2.
Why should anyone believe your opinion over against the statements of the New Testament writers?
What you just quoted is from the letters that form the New Testament...Show us something that comes from Torah ...
All I see is something from you that makes no sense.
Where have I 'tossed out Paul'? And, are you saying that the ones who collated what did and what did not appear in the New Testament were also under divine guidance? No offense, Jeaniee, but you're not using much common sense. You've evidently been pretty much programmed to going into a defensive position whenever someone attempts to put you right on Bible matters. But, this is all to no avail on this particular issue anyway. It's not that I'm implying that Paul was not someone who played an important role in getting the Gospel message out to the Gentiles. All I am saying is that Paul's letters are NOT scripture but ARE letters and that the particular text you keep raising is referring to the Torah. That said, I admit that "I" also often refer to texts from the Bible as 'scripture' for the sake of ease. But this doesn't necessarily mean that I believe every text to be 'God-breathed' ...or any of the Bible for that matter. I have no idea what is 'God-breathed' and what is not. Nor do you.
How come my posts are not regarded as 'scripture', Jeaniee? What source tells you that my quotes are not 'God-breathed' but that Paul's quotes are? Would my quotes need to be collated into a 'holy book' by mere mortals (as with the Bible) before you believed that they are 'God-breathed'? Is that the way it works?
Yes, that is what has been implanted in your mind. Unfortunately, common sense often suffers in order to make room in the mind for bogus 'beliefs'.
Well stated.
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Well stated.
