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Christianity is based on the redemptive work of Christ. If He were just a prophet, Christianity is null & void.
This one interests me.
Why can't the redemption be achieved if Jesus is a prophet only, doing all the good works?
Can't we still make it to heaven by taking Jesus as the prophet and try to follow his ways and live a life as per his message?
This is the whole idea, what if Jesus is a messangers pointing his finger towards God, and is saying - HE is the one and only. And I am only a messenger sent to inform you with this information.
How does this make Christian doctrine fall apart?
It looks like the early Christians DID believe that Jesus is only a prophet - and NOT a God or God's son.
It isn't a question of what came first. Of course Judaism came first. That doesn't mean anything. Records came before CDs; whoopdy-doo.
The relevant questions are: 1) where do we stop in history and revelation, and 2) who can become God's children. You guys basically want to stop before Jesus' time, and pass over and discount Jesus as the risen Messiah. We recognize him as such. You want God all for yourselves. We recognize that he is for all, gentiles included.
Last edited by Thoreau424; 01-01-2018 at 05:48 PM..
Why can't the redemption be achieved if Jesus is a prophet only, doing all the good works?
Can't we still make it to heaven by taking Jesus as the prophet and try to follow his ways and live a life as per his message?
This is the whole idea, what if Jesus is a messangers pointing his finger towards God, and is saying - HE is the one and only. And I am only a messenger sent to inform you with this information.
How does this make Christian doctrine fall apart?
It looks like the early Christians DID believe that Jesus is only a prophet - and NOT a God or God's son.
Because a mere man would have inherited the sin nature, just like the rest of us. Jesus, as God in flesh, was sinless, which satisfies God’s holiness.
Jesus’ primary mission was to redeem us, through His redemptive work on the cross, which satisfies God’s love for us.
And you're wrong about that ANE stuff...That's dishonest...
First of all, being wrong is not being dishonest, it's being wrong. But I'm not wrong.
The Hebrew Bible is steeped in that ''ANE stuff.'' The Hebrew Bible is heavy in the use of Ancient Near Eastern concepts, such as the creation story, the flood story, the ANE cosmology which included the belief in a flat earth and the heavens being supported by pillars and the firmament being a solid material. And much more, including the cloud rider concept in which the Canaanite god Baal is said to be the cloud rider. The Baal story is contained on six tablets which were found at Ugarit. Here is just a tiny part of the story in which Baal is declared to be the cloud rider. It's on tablet two, column 4. Lines 5 through 9.
''The Mighty will fall to the ground,
the powerful to the dust.''
These words had just come from his mouth,
this speech from his lips,
when she raised her voice:
''May he sink beneath Prince Sea's throne.''
And Kothar-wa-Hasis spoke:
''Let me tell you, Prince Baal,
let me repeat, rider on the clouds:
Now, your enemy Baal,
now you will kill your enemy,
now you will annihilate your foe. [Bolding mine]
From 'stories from Ancient Canaan', second edition, pp. 113-14.
Baal superseded the Canaanite god El as the most important god in Canaanite religion. The writers of the Hebrew Bible took for themselves the use of the title, ''rider on the clouds'' and applied it to Yahweh as a polemic against the Canaanite religion and against Baal who is mention repeatedly in the Hebrew Bible. As already shown, Yahweh is referred to as the one who rides the clouds, the one one who rides the heavens in Isaiah 19:1; Deuteronomy 33:26; Psalm 68:33; 104:3. In Daniel 7:13 the cloud rider is said to be the Son of Man. Jesus quoted Daniel 7:13 and applied it to Himself. It was a claim to deity which Caiaphas understood full well.
It would benefit you to do some comparative religious studies, if you can handle reality. The fact that the Hebrew Bible uses ANE concepts doesn't invalidate the truth of the Bible, it simply uses those ANE concepts to relate theological messaging and to subvert the ANE religious concepts. However, the ancient Hebrews did in fact believe the ANE cosmology which was part of their culture such as the flat earth and so on. But God didn't find it necessary to correct their view of the cosmos in order to communicate His message to them.
Last edited by Michael Way; 01-01-2018 at 06:01 PM..
Why can't the redemption be achieved if Jesus is a prophet only, doing all the good works?
Can't we still make it to heaven by taking Jesus as the prophet and try to follow his ways and live a life as per his message?
This is the whole idea, what if Jesus is a messangers pointing his finger towards God, and is saying - HE is the one and only. And I am only a messenger sent to inform you with this information.
How does this make Christian doctrine fall apart?
It looks like the early Christians DID believe that Jesus is only a prophet - and NOT a God or God's son.
The Ebionites for one...They were the direct descendant of the Jerusalem council that was led by James the Just...
It isn't a question of what came first. Of course Judaism came first. That doesn't mean anything. Records came before CDs; whoopdy-doo.
The relevant questions are: 1) where do we stop in history and revelation, and 2) who can become God's children. You guys basically want to stop before Jesus' time, and pass over and discount Jesus as the risen Messiah. We recognize him as such. You want God all for yourselves. We recognize that he is for all, gentiles included.
And you don’t understand that we Do Not believe that G-d is all to ourselves...But dishonestly editing the Hebrew Scriptures in order to claim a Messiah that does not exist within the Hebrew Scriptures is wrong...And then claiming that Christians have replaced the Jews...
Because a mere man would have inherited the sin nature, just like the rest of us. Jesus, as God in flesh, was sinless, which satisfies God’s holiness.
Jesus’ primary mission was to redeem us, through His redemptive work on the cross, which satisfies God’s love for us.
First of all, being wrong is not being dishonest, it's being wrong. But I'm not wrong.
The Hebrew Bible is steeped in that ''ANE stuff.'' The Hebrew Bible is heavy in the use of Ancient Near Eastern concepts, such as the creation story, the flood story, the ANE cosmology which included the belief in a flat earth and the heavens being supported by pillars and the firmament being a solid material. And much more, including the cloud rider concept in which the Canaanite god Baal is said to be the cloud rider. The Baal story is contained on six tablets which were found at Ugarit. Here is just a tiny part of the story in which Baal is declared to be the cloud rider. It's on tablet two, column 4. Lines 5 through 9.
''The Mighty will fall to the ground,
the powerful to the dust.''
These words had just come from his mouth,
this speech from his lips,
when she raised her voice:
''May he sink beneath Prince Sea's throne.''
And Kothar-wa-Hasis spoke:
''Let me tell you, Prince Baal,
let me repeat, rider on the clouds:
Now, your enemy Baal,
now you will kill your enemy,
now you will annihilate your foe. [Bolding mine]
From 'stories from Ancient Canaan', second edition, pp. 113-14.
Baal superseded the Canaanite god El as the most important god in Canaanite religion. The writers of the Hebrew Bible took for themselves the use of the title, ''rider on the clouds'' and applied it to Yahweh as a polemic against the Canaanite religion and against Baal who is mention repeatedly in the Hebrew Bible. As already shown, Yahweh is referred to as the one who rides the clouds, the one one who rides the heavens in Isaiah 19:1; Deuteronomy 33:26; Psalm 68:33; 104:3. In Daniel 7:13 the cloud rider is said to be the Son of Man. Jesus quoted Daniel 7:13 and applied it to Himself. It was a claim to deity which Caiaphas understood full well.
It would benefit you to do some comparative religious studies, if you can handle reality. The fact that the Hebrew Bible uses ANE concepts doesn't invalidate the truth of the Bible, it simply uses those ANE concepts to relate theological messaging and to subvert the ANE religious concepts. However, the ancient Hebrews did in fact believe the ANE cosmology which was part of their culture such as the flat earth and so on. But God didn't find it necessary to correct their view of the cosmos in order to communicate His message to them.
Why can't the redemption be achieved if Jesus is a prophet only, doing all the good works?
Can't we still make it to heaven by taking Jesus as the prophet and try to follow his ways and live a life as per his message?
This is the whole idea, what if Jesus is a messangers pointing his finger towards God, and is saying - HE is the one and only. And I am only a messenger sent to inform you with this information.
How does this make Christian doctrine fall apart?
It looks like the early Christians DID believe that Jesus is only a prophet - and NOT a God or God's son.
Are you going to simply disregard the fact that the New Testament writers stated plainly that Jesus is God? Did you read my post, #3?
And here is a list of quotes from some of the early church fathers in which they affirm that Jesus is God.
First of all, being wrong is not being dishonest, it's being wrong. But I'm not wrong.
The Hebrew Bible is steeped in that ''ANE stuff.'' The Hebrew Bible is heavy in the use of Ancient Near Eastern concepts, such as the creation story, the flood story, the ANE cosmology which included the belief in a flat earth and the heavens being supported by pillars and the firmament being a solid material. And much more, including the cloud rider concept in which the Canaanite god Baal is said to be the cloud rider. The Baal story is contained on six tablets which were found at Ugarit. Here is just a tiny part of the story in which Baal is declared to be the cloud rider. It's on tablet two, column 4. Lines 5 through 9.
''The Mighty will fall to the ground,
the powerful to the dust.''
These words had just come from his mouth,
this speech from his lips,
when she raised her voice:
''May he sink beneath Prince Sea's throne.''
And Kothar-wa-Hasis spoke:
''Let me tell you, Prince Baal,
let me repeat, rider on the clouds:
Now, your enemy Baal,
now you will kill your enemy,
now you will annihilate your foe. [Bolding mine]
From 'stories from Ancient Canaan', second edition, pp. 113-14.
Baal superseded the Canaanite god El as the most important god in Canaanite religion. The writers of the Hebrew Bible took for themselves the use of the title, ''rider on the clouds'' and applied it to Yahweh as a polemic against the Canaanite religion and against Baal who is mention repeatedly in the Hebrew Bible. As already shown, Yahweh is referred to as the one who rides the clouds, the one one who rides the heavens in Isaiah 19:1; Deuteronomy 33:26; Psalm 68:33; 104:3. In Daniel 7:13 the cloud rider is said to be the Son of Man. Jesus quoted Daniel 7:13 and applied it to Himself. It was a claim to deity which Caiaphas understood full well.
It would benefit you to do some comparative religious studies, if you can handle reality. The fact that the Hebrew Bible uses ANE concepts doesn't invalidate the truth of the Bible, it simply uses those ANE concepts to relate theological messaging and to subvert the ANE religious concepts. However, the ancient Hebrews did in fact believe the ANE cosmology which was part of their culture such as the flat earth and so on. But God didn't find it necessary to correct their view of the cosmos in order to communicate His message to them.
One thing that you’re wrong about:
The earliest of these flat-Earth promoters was the African Lactantius (AD 245-325), a professional rhetorician who converted to Christianity mid-life.
He rejected all the Greek philosophers, and in doing so also rejected a spherical Earth. His views were considered heresy by the Church Fathers and his work was ignored until the Renaissance (at which time some humanists revived his writings as a model of good Latin, and of course, his flat Earth view also was revived). - https://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c034.html
1) The earth is flat and is resting on some sort of foundation.
2) The earth is flat but is floating in the air or nothingness.
3) The earth is round but its "bottom" half is immersed in water.
4) The earth is round and both sides are inhabitable.
The First View
No rabbi could ever hold the first view, that the earth is flat and is supported by something. After all, the Bible says in Job 26:7 "He suspends the earth upon nothingness." Some bring proof that the talmudic sages contradicted this verse and followed the first view from the following Gemara in Chagiga 12b but as we will see it was meant metaphorically and not literally. - http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_shape.html
Looks like it was a Christian who first came up with the idea that the earth was flat and not the ancient Israelites...
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