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Old 01-07-2018, 05:07 PM
 
Location: minnesota
5,256 posts, read 1,679,690 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I don't believe for one second that if you lose faith you were never saved in the first place. That belief comes straight out of 5 point Calvinism if I remember correctly. At any rate, people lose faith for all sorts of reasons. It simply does not follow that if you lose faith you never had faith in the first place. And how can you lose something if you never had it to begin with. And if you did have faith to begin with then since the believer is eternally secure he cannot lose his salvation for any reason including a loss of faith.
Someone on the reddit exJWsub I go to posted they were a Calvinist now. They put up this:

TULIP-

T Total Depravity Mankind is completely dead in sin with no ounce of spiritual life. Unable to receive God's grace because mankind is in the flesh and the flesh is hostile to God, producing fruit only of death.

U Unconditional Election God choses who to save before the foundation of the world. He does not choose based off of us or what we do, but whomever He decides to have mercy one

L Limited Atonement Christ's sacrifice is for His sheep/people alone. The atonement is limited not in power, but in reach.

I Irresistible Grace Whoever God sets His favor upon will desire to recieve God's grace. The person is not drawn to salvation against their will, rather God gives them the desire to come to Him and they do so willingly.

P Perseverance of the Saints All who God justifies are guaranteed to be saved to the end, not by our power, but by God. It is He who will and works in the believer to make them finish their race well.
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Old 01-07-2018, 05:08 PM
 
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Interesting thread. Calvisism or not, it sems inescapable that if you lose you faith - seriously - you could never have really been saved in the first place, even if you thought you were. God would know that you were going to lose faith.

The alternative is either than if you are truly saved by God, then you are saved even if you become an atheist. Or that you can become truly saved but also become unsaved. And God knew that would happen and saved you anyway, because after all the apparent mistakes and mind -changes of a God that knew it all from the start, were factored into the Plan before Creation even started.
This can be a problem for Dogma of course, because it raises the question: is Dogma God -given or man made? The answer is obvious - if it was God -given it was all be the same Dogma for everyone. If some are wrong, they are the imaginings of men. But this again isn't to the liking of Theologians, because which are God -given and which man made? How do you tell?

Fruits? But we know don't we that any bad fruit is said not to be part of the tree (1), so the tree itself is still Good. That method doesn't work. But as the method is in the Bible it must work, mustn't it? So bad fruit - any bad -fruit - must mean a bad tree. And which tree has never produced bad fruit? Which Church had Saved people who have never become unsaved?

(1) unless the sin is not so rotten that it can't be patched over with a bit of exhibition repentance.
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Old 01-07-2018, 05:20 PM
 
399 posts, read 64,336 times
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Why did Jesus say this then;

Matthew 5:13

13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if salt has lost its taste, how can its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything, but is thrown out and trampled under foot.

Or

" Any tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown in the fire. "

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinegrower. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit
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Old 01-07-2018, 05:21 PM
 
Location: minnesota
5,256 posts, read 1,679,690 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Interesting thread. Calvisism or not, it sems inescapable that if you lose you faith - seriously - you could never have really been saved in the first place, even if you thought you were. God would know that you were going to lose faith.

The alternative is either than if you are truly saved by God, then you are saved even if you become an atheist. Or that you can become truly saved but also become unsaved. And God knew that would happen and saved you anyway, because after all the apparent mistakes and mind -changes of a God that knew it all from the start, were factored into the Plan before Creation even started.
This can be a problem for Dogma of course, because it raises the question: is Dogma God -given or man made? The answer is obvious - if it was God -given it was all be the same Dogma for everyone. If some are wrong, they are the imaginings of men. But this again isn't to the liking of Theologians, because which are God -given and which man made? How do you tell?

Fruits? But we know don't we that any bad fruit is said not to be part of the tree (1), so the tree itself is still Good. That method doesn't work. But as the method is in the Bible it must work, mustn't it? So bad fruit - any bad -fruit - must mean a bad tree. And which tree has never produced bad fruit? Which Church had Saved people who have never become unsaved?

(1) unless the sin is not so rotten that it can't be patched over with a bit of exhibition repentance.
When I hear someone say things along those lines I reference my experience of "knowing". If any of the saved reading this thread would like to tell what happened I started a thread for it here.

Epiphanies, healing, and spiritual phenomenon....
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Old 01-07-2018, 05:21 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
13,299 posts, read 4,253,375 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vf6cruiser View Post
What is in the water down there in Booth, TX????
LOL, That is just the plan that nobody is aware of, it is a 7 year plan. The coming of the Lord is as the rain, two comings. Those 7 feast days are 7 days particular to the brides of Christ{ONE WEEK}, the first creates the bride from the body of Jesus, and then the betrothal on Pentecost, and now you are waiting for the coming of a Jewish bridegroom because although you have a legally binding betrothal, you have not yet even met your bridegroom, and each of the Holy days of Jesus is instruction for the bride to know the days of the bridegroom, each day is set for the coming of the bridegroom, a honeymoon, a consummation, a wedding feast, a child born from that consummation and the circumcision of that child.


These things are about you, do you want to know your own days of marriage and when you produce a child of God?


Although you have not known your husband, you are somehow found with child. This is the beginning of being born again where an actual real creature that is not human, is planted inside you as a child so that Jesus can be formed in you as a new being, and you are to raise this child on the milk of the word in order for the child to be matured where he can eat the meat of the feasts.


What is the point of somebody making the claim,'' I AM THE BRIDE OF CHRIST?"'


Do people really assume that being a bride is the point? BRIDES ARE TO PRODUCE SONS!!!!

That would be ridiculous, may there be a billion people claiming to be brides of Christ is absolutely beside the point, God is not looking for a bride who is given a child that the bride starves to death in years of neglect, God is not giving you a seed to plant in this earth as if it never was, HE ISN"T LOOKING FOR BRIDES, he is looking for people to produce HIS SONS, sons of God, and whether there be a billion virgins, if none of them raise a fully matured son of God, a billion will weep, because they refused to raise the children of God.

Jesus was the only true, pure virgin who came in the flesh as the son of Eve, and as all flesh is a house representing the female house and body of the male spirit that indwells that house, Jesus was the one true temple, but even Jesus had to raise a full grown mature son of God before his death in order to produce a full grown son of spirit.

When Jesus let out a yell, and that great veil in the Holy place ripped in two from top to bottom, it was showing a legal consummation between God and Jesus, and this had been practiced for thousands of years by the congregation at Sukkot where the water and the wine spill out over the sacrifice and into the earth as a witness. The blood and the water ARE the bride of Christ that was created from the body of Jesus. That Temple has always been in the design of human anatomy taken from a virgin, and that veil is a wall of separation inside a virgin that keeps her a virgin, when it tore, it was showing the Holy of Holies behind the veil, and the ark is there to represent a uterus.

That was the first time in all of history that God consummated a marriage between himself and a human, and Jesus had already raised the seed of God he was born with until he could speak in parables, in the language of a fully matured soul who knows the word of God.

Jesus was literally planted in the Earth on Unleavened bread just as was practiced in Passover and unleavened bread, and the Earth literally became pregnant with the very firstfruit of the earth, but that many others would be planted in the earth and then rise as firsfruits just like Jesus because they had raised full grown sons of spirit.

They had raised Priests.

The Earth has been seed with billions of people and only this one man sprang up as a miracle grain for the firstfruit of a harvest.

It is strange to think about, the Earth becoming pregnant because we can't imagine the spirit of the Earth and who has been put in charge of it. Jesus being the Earth's first born son, he literally become one with all the molecules in this earth, and it makes me think of Elisha in whom the Earth loved.
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Old 01-07-2018, 05:24 PM
 
16,089 posts, read 9,266,938 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vf6cruiser View Post
This always generates a lot of heat and angst and a chorus claiming they were once saved but now lost. According to the book THEY WERE NEVER SAVED to begin with.

1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1Cor 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Millions across the land live in fear that if they don't lead perfect lives they will be tossed. The opposite is true for real believers.......

Jude 24 24 Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, (It's Gods POWER that keeps you not yours)

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were SEALED for the day of redemption.

Romans in authority had signet rings to stamp in hot wax SEALING documents and other things. The penalty for breaking the seal was death. We note in the above verse we are sealed until redemption, that makes it permanent.

In Hebrews 3 believers were encouraged to enter God's rest......relax in the knowledge you are secure

And now to wrap it up God emphatically says nothing can take His believers from Him........if someone or some group is telling you that you can be lost, run don't walk out the door......

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Grace and peace and strive to enter into rest.......you are secure if your trust is in Christ.....
There are realistically two ways to lo at it, but neither supports OSAS.

1.BBE 2 Peter 1:10 For this reason, my brothers, take all the more care to make your selection and approval certain; for if you do these things you will never have a fall:

KJV 2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

NJB 2 Peter 1:10 Instead of this, brothers, never allow your choice or calling to waver; then there will be no danger of your stumbling,

RSV 2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall;

Ones being called does not mean they are immediately sealed.

So many may make an alter call, claim Jesus as their savior, etc, and yet not really be saved at that point. In fact no one is saved at that point unless it was genuine claim and they died then.

OR, they are saved when they make the claim, but do not continue in genuine faith, thus not making their approval sure.

If OSAS were true many scriptures would be... in contradiction to that teaching.

There is a point when one is given direct approval by God, but it is NOT at the beginning of their walk, but once they have shall we say, proven their faith.

Paul set the example:

2 Timothy 4:7-8 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

This occurred late in his life as a Christian, not at the beginning of it. We are supposed to learn from the Scriptures not from a churches tecahing.
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Old 01-07-2018, 05:34 PM
 
Location: US
26,280 posts, read 13,939,623 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I don't believe for one second that if you lose faith you were never saved in the first place. That belief comes straight out of 5 point Calvinism if I remember correctly. At any rate, people lose faith for all sorts of reasons. It simply does not follow that if you lose faith you never had faith in the first place. And how can you lose something if you never had it to begin with. And if you did have faith to begin with then since the believer is eternally secure he cannot lose his salvation for any reason including a loss of faith.
I believe that was Pelegiaism, which later became Arminianism, where one is to maintain their salvation or lose it...
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Old 01-07-2018, 05:51 PM
 
20,301 posts, read 15,658,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8 View Post
Someone on the reddit exJWsub I go to posted they were a Calvinist now. They put up this:

TULIP-

T Total Depravity Mankind is completely dead in sin with no ounce of spiritual life. Unable to receive God's grace because mankind is in the flesh and the flesh is hostile to God, producing fruit only of death.

U Unconditional Election God choses who to save before the foundation of the world. He does not choose based off of us or what we do, but whomever He decides to have mercy one

L Limited Atonement Christ's sacrifice is for His sheep/people alone. The atonement is limited not in power, but in reach.

I Irresistible Grace Whoever God sets His favor upon will desire to recieve God's grace. The person is not drawn to salvation against their will, rather God gives them the desire to come to Him and they do so willingly.

P Perseverance of the Saints All who God justifies are guaranteed to be saved to the end, not by our power, but by God. It is He who will and works in the believer to make them finish their race well.
Those are the five points of five point Calvinism. And TULIP just is not Biblically accurate. For one thing, the Bible does not teach limited atonement, but that Jesus died for all men.

1 John 2:2 says that Jesus' sacrifice was for the sins of the whole world.

1 Timothy 2:6 says that Jesus gave himself as a ransom for all. Not just for some.

2 Corinthians 5:14 says that one (Jesus) died for all.

This quite simply teaches unlimited atonement. Not the limited atonement of Calvinism.

And in Calvinism, if you persevere until the end you were really saved, but if you lose your faith or stop persevering then it turns out that you were never really saved to begin with. And again, the Bible simply does not teach that.

And there are eternal security passages in the Bible which I won't bother to list unless someone asks for them.
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Old 01-08-2018, 05:03 AM
 
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Once saved always saved is false doctrine. God does not take away one's free will once they become saved. You can turn back into perdition at any time.
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Old 01-08-2018, 06:49 AM
 
Location: SE corner of the Ozark Redoubt
2,136 posts, read 630,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Once saved always saved is false doctrine. God does not take away one's free will once they become saved. You can turn back into perdition at any time.
No, the apostate simply had false salvation.

In 1 Peter 2 Speaking of the deceptions of False Teachers:
Quote:
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped[d] from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: A dog returns to his own vomit, and, a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.
So, why did she return to wallowing in mire?
Because she was a pig. She Always Was A Pig.
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