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Old 01-08-2018, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
27,914 posts, read 29,727,261 times
Reputation: 13062

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vf6cruiser View Post
You don't really believe that he was lost.
Of course, I don't, but everything you've said implies that you do. Thomas, after all, did "waver on trust" in Christ, which would you seem to be implying is essential for salvation. Certainly, having known Jesus personally as well as he had at the time of the Resurrection -- he should have fully trusted that Jesus would actually rise from the dead as He'd said He would.

Quote:
Peter denied Jesus 3 times and was yet forgiven by Jesus later......the earthly ministry was before everyone received the Holy Spirit in the dispensation of grace.......an entirely different scene.
Yes, he denied knowing the man, Jesus, who was under arrest, but he did that to save his own skin. Not a good reason, I'll grant you, but Thomas actually had no faith that Jesus had risen from the dead. He was indeed doubting that Jesus could have done that, which was in essence, letting his lack of trust rule over his faith. Are you saying that everybody who lived prior to Pentecost is going to be judged by a different standard than those who lived afterwards? I'm really not sure exactly what you're trying to say.
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Old 01-08-2018, 02:13 PM
 
Location: SE corner of the Ozark Redoubt
8,635 posts, read 4,459,477 times
Reputation: 9027
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
Since many Atheists were formely very devout believers and claimed they no longer believed once they opened their eyes, does this mean a former Atheist is still saved because he accepted Jesus at a young age, but no longer believes?
...
They may still be saved, or they may have just been a very clean pig (see post #20).
Only God knows the heart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
...
Yes, he denied knowing the man, Jesus, who was under arrest, but he did that to save his own skin. Not a good reason, I'll grant you, but Thomas actually had no faith that Jesus had risen from the dead. He was indeed doubting that Jesus could have done that, which was in essence, doubting his faith in Him.
Peter and Thomas each had a crisis of faith,
and both emerged from it with a renewed faith.

I have often said "He is the faithful one,
and I have faith, that He is faithful."
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Old 01-08-2018, 02:52 PM
 
4,684 posts, read 6,088,746 times
Reputation: 3985
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRex2 View Post
They may still be saved, or they may have just been a very clean pig (see post #20).
Only God knows the heart.


Peter and Thomas each had a crisis of faith,
and both emerged from it with a renewed faith.

I have often said "He is the faithful one,
and I have faith, that He is faithful."

Ive known many with a 100% pure heart when they got saved, but after the age of 18-21 when there was no one to tell them what to do or they were just tired of being good and waiting on whoever God would send them, they lived lives equal or worse to their unbelieving friends.

So if they died unrepentant in their sins, would they have been seen as saved in the eyes of God?
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Old 01-08-2018, 03:23 PM
 
Location: SE corner of the Ozark Redoubt
8,635 posts, read 4,459,477 times
Reputation: 9027
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
Ive known many with a 100% pure heart when they got saved, but after the age of 18-21 when there was no one to tell them what to do or they were just tired of being good and waiting on whoever God would send them, they lived lives equal or worse to their unbelieving friends.

So if they died unrepentant in their sins, would they have been seen as saved in the eyes of God?
Absolutely. If they truly believed.

I tell people to look at it like this:
Ford produces a Car.

The car is meant to be kept clean, shiny and
is designed to be driven down the road.

But, driving down the road doesn't make it a car,
Ford did that.

Being dirty and grimy doesn't make it "not a car"
it is still a car, because Ford did that.

If it was a car, it is a car.

If it was a cardboard or wood mockup,
or a full scale model, for wind tunnel testing,
it may have looked exactly like a car, but it was never a car.
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Old 01-08-2018, 03:48 PM
 
Location: Red River Texas
22,860 posts, read 10,253,113 times
Reputation: 2290
Wait, now cars are saved?
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Old 01-08-2018, 05:36 PM
 
553 posts, read 167,746 times
Reputation: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
Wait, now cars are saved?
No, they are salvaged
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Old 01-08-2018, 06:15 PM
 
3,220 posts, read 909,338 times
Reputation: 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vf6cruiser View Post
Are you a Jew and have you spoken to Jesus directly lately? maybe you haven't because He isn't down here anymore and in the interim HE changed the dispensation from law to grace. In reality not even the Jews in Jerusalem can practice the law completely because the sacrifice hasn't returned, and won't until the tribulation. If you think you are still under the law in this age of grace you are actually under a curse and condemned.......it's right there in the book you claim to understand.........break ONE law and it's all over

Gal_3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a CURSE; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."

On the other hand those who believe the gospel of grace love Jesus because HE took their punishment for them and was the only one QUALIFIED to do it.........

Gal_3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"—
Paul was not saved and those who live by his words are lost as well.
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Old 01-08-2018, 07:02 PM
 
Location: minnesota
15,797 posts, read 6,223,816 times
Reputation: 5034
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRex2 View Post
Absolutely. If they truly believed.

I tell people to look at it like this:
Ford produces a Car.

The car is meant to be kept clean, shiny and
is designed to be driven down the road.

But, driving down the road doesn't make it a car,
Ford did that.

Being dirty and grimy doesn't make it "not a car"
it is still a car, because Ford did that.

If it was a car, it is a car.

If it was a cardboard or wood mockup,
or a full scale model, for wind tunnel testing,
it may have looked exactly like a car, but it was never a car.
I agree with the sentiment of "I am what I am". I'm not ashamed of it one tiny bit even if it turns out I'm not a car and just happened to end up in your wind tunnel. I've already gotten more than most people in history ever have. Can you imagine someone who lived 500 years ago walking into a first world nation? Mind=blown!I didn't do anything to deserve it and I'm grateful.

So, in your world a mockup(me as I was a believer and even have given my testimony but decided that testimony was beautiful but not actual proof) can ponder if it's a mockup or a car . Can a car do that?
Does a car know it's a car and not a mockup? What's the point to discussing it then if you can't change it anyway? Are you just driving by us lowly mockups and saying how awesome sauce it is to be a real car? This is just ego stroking for you then. Kind of like bullying a kid for being born poor.

I guess what I'm trying to say Larry is if you keep tooting your own horn you'll go blind.
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Old 01-08-2018, 08:15 PM
 
4,345 posts, read 2,134,790 times
Reputation: 3395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Free4you View Post
Paul was not saved and those who live by his words are lost as well.

Another misguided one who wants to toss Paul under the bus. Not surprised.
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Old 01-08-2018, 08:28 PM
 
4,345 posts, read 2,134,790 times
Reputation: 3395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Of course, I don't, but everything you've said implies that you do. Thomas, after all, did "waver on trust" in Christ, which would you seem to be implying is essential for salvation. Certainly, having known Jesus personally as well as he had at the time of the Resurrection -- he should have fully trusted that Jesus would actually rise from the dead as He'd said He would.

Yes, he denied knowing the man, Jesus, who was under arrest, but he did that to save his own skin. Not a good reason, I'll grant you, but Thomas actually had no faith that Jesus had risen from the dead. He was indeed doubting that Jesus could have done that, which was in essence, letting his lack of trust rule over his faith. Are you saying that everybody who lived prior to Pentecost is going to be judged by a different standard than those who lived afterwards? I'm really not sure exactly what you're trying to say.

These are bad examples the people I'm talking about were those who were briefly excited but never truly believed. Later they bitterly worked against God, mocking and clearly never having understood faith or the works of Jesus or what was really required for salvation. Have dealt with many on other forums. Will probably have a few here also......although only Jesus can see the heart motivation and a miniscule few may have a change of heart later, there is just no way to know. The door is open......we all have until our last breath to believe in the mighty one of Nazareth.......
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