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not according to Jesus when he told the thief "Today you will be with me..."
This is one of the better anecdotes I have seen to support a theory, through implicit interpretation.
Certainly better than "not needing to be baptized", because the thief on the cross had no hope in hell of this happening at the final stages of his life, and before it had become standard practice anyway.
ON the OP, who has an SDA background, I am not entirely convinced one way or the other.
I believe I will continue to be alive after my body is shed. This is because Christ has been raised up and glorified. Before that, it was not possible for the dead to know anything. That's how I see it. Don't want to argue - just putting my view out here to share it.
Just for clarification: How does a persons mind, will and emotions (i.e., soul) exist without the body?
You are correct and incorrect all at the same time.
Scriptures tell us that prior to the crucifixion and resurrection, the dead went to a place called sheol. We must stop at this point for an explanation of sheol and how the idea was Hellenized - corrupted by the Church.
Hebrew conception of death and the after life is revealed in the pages of the Old Testament or Old Covenant. It is a place where the dead slept called sheol. There was no consciousness there and no perception of the passage of time. David bemoaned sheol as a place where he could not worship and praise Adonai. It was a place of sleeping - no more and no less. That's it and that's all. We ought not embellish upon an idea that is fairly simple in concept and explanation.
Interpretations of the scripture of the New Testament or New Covenant were corrupted almost as soon as they were written down. Due mostly to anti-semitic rejection of Jewish traditions about sheol, the church chose instead to adopt the ideology of pagan beliefs about the afterlife. Much of this is still considered part of the dogma today except that it isn't scriptural in any context of the Word. They deliberately chose to adopt pagan myths because they were and are financially advantageous. It's all about the money.
Hades, the land of the dead, is purely a heathen myth while Purgatory was refined by the Roman church from the non-canonical books of the Apocrypha. Jews do not accept the Apocrypha as scripture though they traditionally accept its account of the Maccabees as a basis for their annual celebration of the dedication of the 2nd Temple - Hanukkah. Protestants haven't canonized the Apocrypha either, even though they unofficially accept some of its ideas about the after life. It's the same as the Catholics, but without the financial advantages.
Hell was an interpretation adopted by the Roman church to justify allegiance via fear mongering. Jesus talked about the second death, which is a permanent cessation of spiritual life NOT an eternal punishment. A permanent condition is different from an eternal one. Hell, according to the middle ages myth, was eternal. Torture, even an eternal situation of suffering, is still a form of life albeit a terrible one. Jesus said the second death was permanent, not eternal. Big difference. Our cemeteries are full of people who are permanently dead. The Lake of Fire, described in scripture is a place of consumption. No element or creature will long endure the consumption of flame. The Lake of Fire is an eternal flame. That which falls into it is consumed permanently. Death is permanent. Fire consumes permanently. The second death is not torture, it is permanent elimination.
Atheists like to say that death is permanent and that nothing comes after it. They are partly correct. If they have chosen to reject Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, that's exactly what they have to look forward to - the second death/permanent elimination.
Consider Dante Alighieri's DIVINE COMEDY. The textual descriptions and wood cuts of people in hell were meant as political sarcasm - in the same tone as saying that if one wanted to go crazy one should move to Washington DC where it would not be noticed. Dante even mentioned certain corrupt political figures by name - the same as describing Nancy Pelosi or Donald Trump wallowing in the flames of eternal torment. It is wishful thinking written down as whimsy, but taken by the church to justify religious taxation. It's all about the money.
Roman Catholic tradition of Purgatory, or a waiting place between heaven and hell, was a device invented to justify spiritual bribery. It encourages financial contributions from their members so as to reduce the time their relatives spend in a place between heaven and earth. It worked then and it works now. It's really all about the money.
That being said....
The resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead changed the circumstance of sheol. Those that slept there were awakened to Paradise or to the second death. While dying on the cross, Jesus promised Paradise, on that very day, to one of the men who was being executed with him. Paradise is defined as eternal life - not the death sleep of sheol. When Christ died, many people rose from the dead and walked around Jerusalem as a divine demonstration that something spiritually powerful had caused a change in the condition of sheol.
So you see the concept of sheol according to the Old Covenant vs. eternal life in paradise or permanent second death according to the New Covenant are Both Correct. The difference is described in the unfolding of history and in the words and testimony of Christ Himself. The difference is a question of time. Sheol itself died on the cross when Jesus breathed His last breath.
Finally, while you insist on scripture references alone, the reader should be made aware that the secular record agrees with the gospel record of the events of Jesus' life, ministry, death and resurrection. There are more secular records of these events than there are of the life and times of Julius Caesar (and nobody doubts those records at all). The gospel account of darkness over the land at the time of Jesus' death are repeated in the secular records. Apparently there was darkness over most if not all of the known world (or the Roman Empire at least). If the Biblical account of Jesus had not survived the march of history, we'd still have the secular record to tell us of the wonderful things He did. Fortunately we have both.
I was referring to Christ's intention. You asked if or implied that Jesus 'took his own life', whereas I meant he sacrificed his life to save humankind. Some people, most notably pregnant women who refuse medical treatment for cancer, do so as not to endanger their unborn with chemotherapy. Their resulting death, for not having chemo, was for the higher intention of saving another's life. Jesus died but Jesus the Christ arose. Otherwise we'd have Jesusanity, worshiping a long dead rabbi, instead of Christ who lives always.
Yes, they did, and Jesus never corrected them, which is something He had every opportunity to do had they been wrong.
When I said the Ancient Hebrews. I was referring to the early stage of Israelite religion. The early stage of Israelite religion knows no "hell." By the time of Jesus, however, "Hell" and it's afterlife had evolved and changed. "Hell" of later imagination is absent in the Hebrew Bible. I agree with the O.P.
not according to Jesus when he told the thief "Today you will be with me..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek41
This is one of the better anecdotes I have seen to support a theory, through implicit interpretation.
Certainly better than "not needing to be baptized", because the thief on the cross had no hope in hell of this happening at the final stages of his life, and before it had become standard practice anyway.
ON the OP, who has an SDA background, I am not entirely convinced one way or the other.
What does the SDA Church have to do with what is clearly a scriptural description of the state of the dead? Moreover, the thief did not die that day and nor did Jesus ascend to Heaven (Paradise) that day.
What does the SDA Church have to do with what is clearly a scriptural description of the state of the dead? Moreover, the thief did not die that day and nor did Jesus ascend to Heaven (Paradise) that day.
Your contention that the Scriptures teach soul sleep or whatever term you personally choose to call it, and which is not the position of mainstream Christianity, has been refuted Romulus, no matter how much you deny that fact. And I invite readers to read through my posts on this thread which demonstrate the fact that the believer in Christ Jesus goes to heaven when he dies.
Just for clarification: How does a persons mind, will and emotions (i.e., soul) exist without the body?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMusic
They are put into a new body which shall be a glorified/not mortal or subject to death, spiritual body.
If the new body is you, then the old has passed away.
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No?
