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Old 05-21-2018, 01:37 PM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,087,833 times
Reputation: 2741

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
You associated the words pain, fear, anguish, torment and damnation to it.

One thing is clear, - it is better to be where Lazarus and Abraham were than where the rich man was. The other thing that is clear is that it was too late for the rich guy to change his situation, and the third clear thing was that the rich guy did NOT want to be where he was.
On what ground do you believe this is about a place called heaven and a place called eternal hell?. Why would you assume that the rich guy and the poor guy are individuals?. It is also blatantly obvious from the things that Jesus taught that they are not to be read and taken literally, and that they mean something far more than the literal take you have on them, the parable is full of symbolism like all other parables are, and none of those symbols in the parable represent a literal place where 2 different kinds of people end up.

Jesus replying to the disciples question about parables said, it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

How the hell can they be a mystery if they are to be taken literal how you and the rest of the misled evangelicals do so ?.
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Old 05-21-2018, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Canada
11,123 posts, read 6,329,176 times
Reputation: 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
That is one of the troubling points when those verses are spoken of. Those who believe in eternal torment take hades and make it Gehenna as if they mean the same thing and have the same purpose. Hades is NOT gehenna. Scripture tells us that hades is thrown into gehenna, so obviously they are not the same no matter what their doctrine tells them, but for whatever reason they cannot see it or refuse to see it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Hades is not gehenna, and no one claimed it was. Why do you say it is what people believe?
Because everyone of you guys use those scriptures to promote eternal torment in the after life. You know it and so does everyone else.
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Florida
76,955 posts, read 47,272,488 times
Reputation: 14764
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Because everyone of you guys use those scriptures to promote eternal torment in the after life. You know it and so does everyone else.
Let me repeat: No one has claimed Hades and Gehenna are the same thing. They are not the same. Like you said, eventually Hades will be thrown to the lake of fire. The Bible does not teach anyone is in Gehenna aka the lake of fire until after the judgment day. Also, believers who have passed away are not where Lazarus was, they are with Christ. The parable is an illustration of two destinations.

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 05-21-2018 at 02:27 PM..
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,192,722 times
Reputation: 2295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
So, you like jimmiej, have taken this parable literally and have applied it to an after life of fear and torment. Although Hades is merely the grave, not an underworld - you believe it is some kind of place where people suffer in pain and anguish to justify your beliefs of eternal damnation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
You associated the words pain, fear, anguish, torment and damnation to it.
Read this part of the parable a few times:

The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

Quote:
One thing is clear, - it is better to be where Lazarus and Abraham were than where the rich man was. The other thing that is clear is that it was too late for the rich guy to change his situation, and the third clear thing was that the rich guy did NOT want to be where he was.
Now, ask yourself a fourth question: "What does it have to do with an afterlife?

And understand it was a parable, not something literal.
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:09 PM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,087,833 times
Reputation: 2741
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Because everyone of you guys use those scriptures to promote eternal torment in the after life. You know it and so does everyone else.
Without a shadow of doubt they do. So all we need to know from Finn Jarber to clarify things is where is the location that the rich man is in. He obviously believes it's a place where there is no escape, which every other evangelical i know believes is eternal torment. It's liketrying to get blood out of stone with this guy.
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Florida
76,955 posts, read 47,272,488 times
Reputation: 14764
Quote:
Originally Posted by n..Xuipa View Post
has anyone noticed that athiests use the word "fear" like a christians might maybe the word murder? yet they are the ones speak about fear all the time.. do they fear fear?
I don't know, but I do know they are obsessed with the topic of hell, and there must be a reason for it.
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Florida
76,955 posts, read 47,272,488 times
Reputation: 14764
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Read this part of the parable a few times:

The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

Now, ask yourself a fourth question: "What does it have to do with an afterlife?

And understand it was a parable, not something literal.
It is a parable about the rich man and Lazarus both dying, and ending up the way they did. Why don't you try to learn from it as opposed to repeating "Hades is just a grave". There is a reason Jesus told the story.
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Canada
11,123 posts, read 6,329,176 times
Reputation: 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Without a shadow of doubt they do. So all we need to know from Finn Jarber to clarify things is where is the location that the rich man is in. He obviously believes it's a place where there is no escape, which every other evangelical i know believes is eternal torment. It's liketrying to get blood out of stone with this guy.
Ya I know he is almost not worth talking to as he knows full well my point but would rather play this stupid game of his.
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Canada
11,123 posts, read 6,329,176 times
Reputation: 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It is a parable about the rich man and Lazarus both dying, and ending up the way they did. Why don't you try to learn from it as opposed to repeating "Hades is just a grave". There is a reason Jesus told the story.
one you have no been able to figure out yet.
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,192,722 times
Reputation: 2295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
So, you like jimmiej, have taken this parable literally and have applied it to an after life of fear and torment. Although Hades is merely the grave, not an underworld - you believe it is some kind of place where people suffer in pain and anguish to justify your beliefs of eternal damnation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
That is one of the troubling points when those verses are spoken of. Those who believe in eternal torment take hades and make it Gehenna as if they mean the same thing and have the same purpose. Hades is NOT gehenna. Scripture tells us that hades is thrown into gehenna, so obviously they are not the same no matter what their doctrine tells them, but for whatever reason they cannot see it or refuse to see it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Hades is not gehenna, and no one claimed it was. Why do you say it is what people believe?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Because everyone of you guys use those scriptures to promote eternal torment in the after life. You know it and so does everyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Let me repeat: No one has claimed Hades and Gehenna are the same thing. They are not the same. Like you said, eventually Gehenna will be thrown to the lake of fire. The Bible does not teach anyone is in Gehenna aka the lake of fire until after the judgment day. Also, believers who have passed away are not where Lazarus was, they are with Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Read this part of the parable a few times:

The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

Now, ask yourself a fourth question: "What does it have to do with an afterlife?

And understand it was a parable, not something literal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It is a parable about the rich man and Lazarus both dying, and ending up the way they did. Why don't you try to learn from it as opposed to repeating "Hades is just a grave". There is a reason Jesus told the story.
Please, by all means, explain the reason why he told the story?
And don't tell me there are two compartments to the grave.
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