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Old 05-28-2018, 04:58 PM
 
Location: USA
4,747 posts, read 2,333,257 times
Reputation: 1292

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Again, Paul received the tradition that he passed on to the Corinthians probably when he met with Peter and James three years after his conversion. What he passed on to the Corinthians was not of his own making and therefore refutes your argument that what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 can't be relied on.



You keep making that same ridiculous claim over and over again. Paul was not ill when he had his Damascus road experience. You like to claim, in direct denial of what Acts 9:9 says, that Paul had gone without food or drink for three days before he had his encounter and was therefore ill. But Acts 9:9 is clear that Paul had his encounter with the risen Jesus BEFORE going without food and water for three days. The same text states that the men who were with him also experienced something. They saw a light and heard a voice which they could not identify. That means that Paul did not have an hallucination.

But you ignore that so that you can dismiss it.
Ridiculous
[ri-dik-yuh-luh s]
adjective
causing or worthy of ridicule or derision; absurd; preposterous; laughable:

You need to get a grip on the meaning of ridiculous. Claiming that a corpse came back to life and flew away is ridiculous. Claiming the someone met with and had a conversation with a man who had been executed years earlier is ridiculous. Why? Because such claims contradict all common experience.

According to Acts 9, while on the road to Damascus Paul became stricken. Acts specifically indicates that at one point Paul went three days without drinking. Whatever the cause, Paul was clearly severely dehydrated and therefore deathly ill. Three days without water is a critical condition. Severe dehydration commonly effects the eyesight, as the vitreous fluid in the eye thickens and sight is diminished, and causes the neurons in the brain to misfire from lack of fluid, inevitably resulting in hallucinations. Among other symptoms.

So, sick and disoriented Paul had to be helped into the city by his traveling companions who then left him at the home of a CHRISTIAN MAN to be cared for. This is a significant point! Sick and delirious from dehydration, and while being tended to and prayed over by a CHRISTIAN MAN, Paul came to believe after his recovery that during his illness he had experienced a face to face visitation with the years dead Jesus. This experience proved to be life changing for Paul and after his recovery Paul became a confirmed Christian. Hardly a surprise, really, given the circumstances.

But we in the 21st century, in the light of reason and logic, are left to consider whether it is more reasonable to conclude that Paul, in his delirium, and while being tended to and prayed over by a Christian, hallucinated a vision of Jesus. Or, conversely, whether it is reasonable to conclude that it is more likely that Paul actually MET WITH AND CONVERSED WITH A DEAD MAN!

As long as Acts continues to indicate that Paul became severely dehydrated during his journey to Damascus, I will continue to notice first that hallucinations are to be expected from someone in a severe state of dehydration, and to notice that meeting with and talking to a dead man is NOT a realistic claim.
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Old 05-28-2018, 05:10 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,941 posts, read 26,170,830 times
Reputation: 16099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
Ridiculous
[ri-dik-yuh-luh s]
adjective
causing or worthy of ridicule or derision; absurd; preposterous; laughable:

You need to get a grip on the meaning of ridiculous. Claiming that a corpse came back to life and flew away is ridiculous. Claiming the someone met with and had a conversation with a man who had been executed years earlier is ridiculous. Why? Because such claims contradict all common experience.

According to Acts 9, while on the road to Damascus Paul became stricken. Acts specifically indicates that at one point Paul went three days without drinking. Whatever the cause, Paul was clearly severely dehydrated and therefore deathly ill. Three days without water is a critical condition. Severe dehydration commonly effects the eyesight, as the vitreous fluid in the eye thickens and sight is diminished, and causes the neurons in the brain to misfire from lack of fluid, inevitably resulting in hallucinations. Among other symptoms.

So, sick and disoriented Paul had to be helped into the city by his traveling companions who then left him at the home of a CHRISTIAN MAN to be cared for. This is a significant point! Sick and delirious from dehydration, and while being tended to and prayed over by a CHRISTIAN MAN, Paul came to believe after his recovery that during his illness he had experienced a face to face visitation with the years dead Jesus. This experience proved to be life changing for Paul and after his recovery Paul became a confirmed Christian. Hardly a surprise, really, given the circumstances.

But we in the 21st century, in the light of reason and logic, are left to consider whether it is more reasonable to conclude that Paul, in his delirium, and while being tended to and prayed over by a Christian, hallucinated a vision of Jesus. Or, conversely, whether it is reasonable to conclude that it is more likely that Paul actually MET WITH AND CONVERSED WITH A DEAD MAN!

As long as Acts continues to indicate that Paul became severely dehydrated during his journey to Damascus, I will continue to notice first that hallucinations are to be expected from someone in a severe state of dehydration, and to notice that meeting with and talking to a dead man is NOT a realistic claim.
You can't seem to get it through your head that Paul went without food and water for three days AFTER he had his encounter with Jesus. Not before. There is no justification for claiming that Paul was dehydrated and ill before he had his encounter. Further, you also cannot seem to understand that the men who were with Paul also saw the light and heard a voice which they could not understand which means that Paul did not have a subjective experience. He had an experience that was to some extent shared by the men who were with him. Also, that was not the only time that Jesus appeared to Paul.

And that Jesus appeared to people after His resurrection is something that those who had the experience are absolutely sure of. Just because you personally can't conceive of the miracle of the resurrection doesn't negate the reality of it.
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Old 05-28-2018, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Panama City, FL
3,536 posts, read 1,693,062 times
Reputation: 1399
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
Dear Rose, I am well aware of the number of lakes in Ontario and yes, I do need to spend more time fishing. I also agree, there are no "Magic Words To Jesus" that ensure a comfy seat in the choir celestial following our earthly expiration date.

But there are people on this forum who are among the worst human beings I have ever come across in my near-67 years on the planet. They are narrow-minded, dark-spirited and cold-hearted. But they believe saying the Magic Words To Jesus keeps them good with their god.
And they also approve of authoritarian dictators who do all manner of sin that is warned about in the New Testament. It's all about the fruit of the tree. Bad Fruit Trees are expert at lying to themselves and turning a blind eye to corruption.
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Old 05-28-2018, 07:07 PM
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,392 posts, read 12,685,091 times
Reputation: 2480
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMusic View Post
And they also approve of authoritarian dictators who do all manner of sin that is warned about in the New Testament. It's all about the fruit of the tree. Bad Fruit Trees are expert at lying to themselves and turning a blind eye to corruption.
Are you getting political here, Rain?
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Old 05-28-2018, 08:07 PM
 
Location: USA
4,747 posts, read 2,333,257 times
Reputation: 1292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You can't seem to get it through your head that Paul went without food and water for three days AFTER he had his encounter with Jesus. Not before. There is no justification for claiming that Paul was dehydrated and ill before he had his encounter. Further, you also cannot seem to understand that the men who were with Paul also saw the light and heard a voice which they could not understand which means that Paul did not have a subjective experience. He had an experience that was to some extent shared by the men who were with him. Also, that was not the only time that Jesus appeared to Paul.

And that Jesus appeared to people after His resurrection is something that those who had the experience are absolutely sure of. Just because you personally can't conceive of the miracle of the resurrection doesn't negate the reality of it.
You can't see to get it through your head that this story is Paul's version of the events. The author of Acts was NOT present. Paul was the afflicted man and as such was the least likely present person to have had a handle on what occurred and in what order. None of which changes the observation that Paul's claim to have met and spoken with the years dead Jesus has no probability for being factual.
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Old 05-28-2018, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
31,374 posts, read 20,045,735 times
Reputation: 14068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
You can't see to get it through your head that this story is Paul's version of the events. The author of Acts was NOT present. Paul was the afflicted man and as such was the least likely present person to have had a handle on what occurred and in what order. None of which changes the observation that Paul's claim to have met and spoken with the years dead Jesus has no probability for being factual.
I'm not sure there's a more powerful force in the universe than belief.

Maybe inertia...


ETA: Actually, there may be a relationship there: belief can become cemented and unchangeable. Especially in a dimly-lit brain.
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Old 05-28-2018, 09:48 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,941 posts, read 26,170,830 times
Reputation: 16099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
You can't see to get it through your head that this story is Paul's version of the events. The author of Acts was NOT present. Paul was the afflicted man and as such was the least likely present person to have had a handle on what occurred and in what order. None of which changes the observation that Paul's claim to have met and spoken with the years dead Jesus has no probability for being factual.
You insist on claiming that Paul was afflicted before having his encounter with Jesus. You're a career skeptic. As I told you on the other thread, just remain a skeptic. It's not my problem.
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,224,358 times
Reputation: 2295
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Are you getting political here, Rain?
Are you the hall monitor?
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:09 PM
 
Location: minnesota
15,797 posts, read 6,232,539 times
Reputation: 5034
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You insist on claiming that Paul was afflicted before having his encounter with Jesus. You're a career skeptic. As I told you on the other thread, just remain a skeptic. It's not my problem.
It's been suggested Paul's encounter was a result of temporal lobe epilepsy. That doesn't prove Jesus wasn't the one there but it's interesting.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1032067/
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:11 PM
 
Location: minnesota
15,797 posts, read 6,232,539 times
Reputation: 5034
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Are you the hall monitor?
He seems to be worried about something he calls "liberal nonsense" showing up on this section of the forum.
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