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Just finished reading through most of this thread and have seen where Shiloh has used christian scholars for support of his understanding.
Shiloh could these scholars you have mentioned be bias? could they be interpreting the words to suit their bias?
Of course, but good scholars like Wallace will give you the possibilities and the probabilities based on context and grammar. One of the main reasons I decided to learn the languages and study Linguistics was because during my days as a Christian trying to study the Bible I heard many teachers contradict themselves and others while saying things like - 'the Greek says.'. This led me to study it for myself and learn to evaluate the texts. Also, Wallace is regarded by all Scholars as one of the best and his grammar is used in most schools. That does not mean that they agree with everything he might say. But with this they can not disagree with his take on the words meaning since they themselves know that is has a different meaning depending on the context and grammar. Words can be very flexible and must be seen in their context - both grammatically and thematically as how the author uses them.
Quote:
Just reading this post by Jer the verse in question is talking about ALL PEOPLE:
supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, for all men
So why would it only be a wish of God that all men be saved and not God stating all men will be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth?
If the prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, is to be done for all men do you not think that this is Gods will and not just his wish?
Based on the totality of Paul's teachings regarding how one comes to be saved and justified, by faith which is the individuals doing, the context of I Timothy, and the grammar it would be a contradiction with his own thoughts if it were God's will to see to it that all men (individuals) got saved. Not because he does not love all men - he died for all men (4:10) - but that his will for salvation is via faith. As such and because we know the word is used differently elsewhere the most probable is the way I am interpreting it using what Wallace called a Probable Indicative with the the word 'saved', following, as an infinitive. So the issue is really what type of will are we to see here.
Of course, but good scholars like Wallace will give you the possibilities and the probabilities based on context and grammar. One of the main reasons I decided to learn the languages and study Linguistics was because during my days as a Christian trying to study the Bible I heard many teachers contradict themselves and others while saying things like - 'the Greek says.'. This led me to study it for myself and learn to evaluate the texts. Also, Wallace is regarded by all Scholars as one of the best and his grammar is used in most schools. That does not mean that they agree with everything he might say. But with this they can not disagree with his take on the words meaning since they themselves know that is has a different meaning depending on the context and grammar. Words can be very flexible and must be seen in their context - both grammatically and thematically as how the author uses them.
Based on the totality of Paul's teachings regarding how one comes to be saved and justified, by faith which is the individuals doing, the context of I Timothy, and the grammar it would be a contradiction with his own thoughts if it were God's will to see to it that all men (individuals) got saved. Not because he does not love all men - he died for all men (4:10) - but that his will for salvation is via faith. As such and because we know the word is used differently elsewhere the most probable is the way I am interpreting it using what Wallace called a Probable Indicative with the the word 'saved', following, as an infinitive.
Shiloh, what do you make of Paul's statement in 2 Cor. 5 that God is not holding the sin of the world against them? "Salvation", from his perspective seems to be about no longer living for self, but living in the recognition that God is not angry and not going to punish. It's about realizing that God considers everyone "dead to sin" (not under condemnation from God) and can live this lifetime in awareness of that.
Shiloh, what do you make of Paul's statement in 2 Cor. 5 that God is not holding the sin of the world against them? "Salvation", from his perspective seems to be about no longer living for self, but living in the recognition that God is not angry and not going to punish. It's about realizing that God considers everyone "dead to sin" (not under condemnation from God) and can live this lifetime in awareness of that.
Exactly Pleroo. Romans 8:3 says God condemned sin not the sinner.Fundamentalists are the ones who say God condemns sinners.
06-04-2018, 10:46 AM
2K5Gx2km
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Shiloh, what do you make of Paul's statement in 2 Cor. 5 that God is not holding the sin of the world against them? "Salvation", from his perspective seems to be about no longer living for self, but living in the recognition that God is not angry and not going to punish. It's about realizing that God considers everyone "dead to sin" (not under condemnation from God) and can live this lifetime in awareness of that.
That's propitiation! God's grace is giving Christ as a sacrifice for the sins of the world (everyone) thus setting aside the wrath that is against sin until the day of judgment. Now is the time of salvation because of the sacrifice of Christ. One must exercise faith though to enter into this salvation/justification and thus be IN Christ, at which time God gives them his Spirit as a down payment of the riches and promises to come - particularly the resurrected body. When one exercises faith they are then a new creation with the Spirit of God living in them and thus Paul says that they then are to live not for themselves but for God and because God sent Christ to die for all men they should seek to persuade them to believe that Christ died for them. But even Christians will be judged at the bema seat of Christ. This is not a judgment unto condemnation or wrath, as Paul says elsewhere, but one of reward or loss according to what one does in the body as a Christian.
That's propitiation! God's grace is giving Christ as a sacrifice for the sins of the world (everyone) thus setting aside the wrath that is against sin until the day of judgment. Now is the time of salvation because of the sacrifice of Christ. One must exercise faith though to enter into this salvation/justification and thus be IN Christ, at which time God gives them his Spirit as a down payment of the riches and promises to come - particularly the resurrected body. When one exercises faith they are then a new creation with the Spirit of God living in them and thus Paul says that they then are to live not for themselves but for God and because God sent Christ to die for all men they should seek to persuade them to believe that Christ died for them. But even Christians will be judged at the bema seat of Christ. This is not a judgment unto condemnation or wrath, as Paul says elsewhere, but one of reward or loss according to what one does in the body as a Christian.
My point being, Paul says God isn't holding the sin of the world against us. Are you saying Paul believed God was going to change God's mind at some point and begin holding sin against people again?
That's propitiation! God's grace is giving Christ as a sacrifice for the sins of the world (everyone) thus setting aside the wrath that is against sin until the day of judgment. Now is the time of salvation because of the sacrifice of Christ. One must exercise faith though to enter into this salvation/justification and thus be IN Christ, at which time God gives them his Spirit as a down payment of the riches and promises to come - particularly the resurrected body. When one exercises faith they are then a new creation with the Spirit of God living in them and thus Paul says that they then are to live not for themselves but for God and because God sent Christ to die for all men they should seek to persuade them to believe that Christ died for them. But even Christians will be judged at the bema seat of Christ. This is not a judgment unto condemnation or wrath, as Paul says elsewhere, but one of reward or loss according to what one does in the body as a Christian.
Same question for you, jimmie. You think Paul believed that God was going to change God's mind at some point and starting holding sin against people? Or, do you see what camps is saying ... saying that works will be judged is not the same thing as saying people will be condemned and punished for those works which aren't in harmony with God's love.
06-04-2018, 11:01 AM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
My point being, Paul says God isn't holding the sin of the world against us. Are you saying Paul believed God was going to change God's mind at some point and begin holding sin against people again?
God is not holding the sin of the world against anyone - right now (that is what propitiation is) - to escape that future wrath against sin you must be found IN Christ. And the only way to do that is to repent and believe in that sacrifice. Propitiation does not save or justify anyone it only sets aside the wrath that God has against sin. Sin has to be dealt with first before one can be justified. The latter only comes via faith not works, not the law, not anything else. That is why you are saved by Grace though faith.
This is God's plan according to Paul - there is no changing God's mind.
I find that a lot of people don't really understand how Paul is using these terms - propitiation, justification, sanctification, glorification, and salvation (which is very flexible).
God is not holding the sin of the world against anyone - right now (that is what propitiation is) - to escape that future wrath against sin you must be found IN Christ. And the only way to do that is to repent and believe in that sacrifice. Propitiation does not save or justify anyone it only sets aside the wrath that God has against sin. Sin has to be dealt with first before one can be justified. The latter only comes via faith not works no the law not anything else. That is why you are saved by Grace though faith.
This is God's plan accrding to Paul - there is no changing God's mind.
If God is not holding sin against people, but then God will hold sin against people in the future, how is that NOT God changing God's mind? Where do you find the definition of propitiation to be "right now" but not later?
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