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RomulusXXV: Pneuma will respond to your post, you can bet your life on it.
Okay, I'll bet my life on it. It won't change anything that I've already stated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose2Luv
It becomes painfully obvious to me you know not of what you speak!
Au contraire, Rose. I normally don't involve myself in discussions that I have no knowledge of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose2Luv
I suggest you break from your traditions and see how your theory matches up with the translations.
The majority of the translations pretty much agree with what I've already stated. That is, the gospel message of the later Jesus character was represented through Noah's ministry to the people of his day. I'm not sure what you think that I'm not getting.
By the way, I don't acquire my knowledge from traditions. On the contrary, I often oppose traditions. Traditions, whether religious or secular, pretty much bore me.
I don't need to look at it again. I don't care what some mainstream churches interpret that scripture to mean. I already know what it means. And it has nothing to do with Jesus preaching to piles of bones several thousand years old during His 3 days and 3 nights in the grave.
Already covered above.
Okay, let us do some logical thinking here. Peter had the Tanakh and this is the source that provided him with the knowledge of the Noah saga. Why do you think that he mentions Noah at all? Peter knew that God had destroyed the wicked and he also knew that every attempt was made by Noah to warn them that, if they didn't change their evil ways, they would be destroyed by an imminent flood. Peter refers to these antediluvian people as being 'spirits' who are 'prisoners' to their sins. As stated previously, the terminology used in this passage is awkward to we of today since it is an ancient text not written in a language that we're familiar with. WE need to understand and acknowledge that!
Okay. Peter is talking about Noah, his family and the 'disobedient' people of Noah's day ...right? Why is Peter talking about Noah at all? Keep reading.
Utter nonsense! The dead, by definition, are not alive! Why did Peter bring up Noah at all? The reason he brought up Noah was to demonstrate that, even several thousand years ago, the gospel message (ala Jesus Christ) was preached by the early prophets to the people of their day who either listened or they didn't. The person of Jesus did not arrive on the scene until ...well, you know the Christmas story. Peter only knew the very same Noah story from the same source as that we have today. NOWHERE in that story does Jesus make an appearance. No. The gospel message as later taught by Jesus was the very same message that Noah related to the antediluvian people and THIS is what Peter is referring to. Are you seriously suggesting that Jesus, following His resurrection, whispered into Peter's ear, "Hey, guess where I've been for the past 3 days? I've been to hell preaching to the prisoners that are being held there!" That's nonsense, of course. As far as Peter was concerned Jesus was dead, then resurrected. He knew no more than that. Peter had the very same information that we have today. Any embellishments pertaining to this scripture have been added by the church due to its obsession with hell.
Of course they weren't dead ...did you read what I said in my previous post? I SAID that they were very much alive DURING the preaching phase but were LATER destroyed by the flood after which they were DEAD. So, Peter, referring to the Noah story (that he got from the Tanakh and NOWHERE else!) tells of Noah's failed mission to save the people of his day who were ALIVE up until the flood came after which they DIED.
Yes they were. They were in a prison that they had made for themselves. And, they suffered the consequences. Many of us today could use that analogy about ourselves. The dead right now are in their graves. They are not suffering eternal torment or partying it up with God in heaven. They know nothing. And they will know nothing until 'resurrection day' (according to the Bible, not me) when the dead in Christ shall arise from their graves and no longer be held captive to death. Pretty neat, eh?
Okay.
You whole scenerio falls apart with the reading
For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
It does NOT say preached even to the NOW dead
Why even say NOW dead, it would have been painfully obvious to any of Peters listeners that those who died in the flood in Noah's day were dead.
Clearly there is very strong resistance to the implication in Peter's enigmatic passage that changes coulg be made in the status of spirits after death. Throws the favorite scare tactic into a cocked hat and makes the gospel rely on its value for community, which the controllers don't like at all.
The above scripture has nothing to do with the 3 days between Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection. Zilch, zero, nada. That scripture is referencing the state of the antediluvian world where the message of the gospel (through Noah) was preached to the evil-doers of the day (termed as the 'spirits in prison') who paid no heed to the message and are NOW dead (at the time of the authorship of 1 Peter) as, of course, they would be centuries later. There are truly some weird and wonderful misinterpretations of scripture out there and this is but one of them . . .
You will note:
1. The preaching of Christ was to the dead of Noah's day.
2. The dead of that day were "disobedient" and perished in the great flood (8 souls were saved)
3. Those who perished (all minus 8) were confined to "prison" aka "spirits in prison".
4. Jesus Christ "preached" to these "disobedient", aka "even the dead", the good news of His triumph.
5. This proclamation occurred after suffering for sin and "being quickened by the Spirit."
6. Net result= judgement "according" to "men in flesh">>>>leading to living "according to God in spirit."
Beyond that I cannot, and will not go. Rose does not believe in chance, first or second or third etc.
I do, however, believe God loses nothing. He is the Source, the Guide, and the Goal of the ta panta. I also believe none of us grasp (including me) the majesty of our triumphant Lord, aka "the Saviour of all mankind."
The Scripture under consideration=
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
I will leave it there, with no further comment from Rose, on this great mystery of which we are in discourse.
that is those in living/ the righteous including Abraham.. ( does his word not say" Abraham Isaac and Jacob".... "you do greatly err God is not God of the dead but of the living" ), their new bodies and souls were in "Paradise" . Jesus only had to release them from there .. ..these seen then are not those locked in the prison parts of hell/death.
you have created a blanket/sheet that you want to cover anything aware..... that just isn't there. there is a division between those "living" and those "dead" .. and it has nothing to do with the physicality of our here and nows. men who are phyically aware in this day and time can and are dead as a doornail to anything of the spiritual Father, Son, Spirit, heaven( earth and heavens kingdoms ), eternity etc .
they are locked in the prison of their own minds and when dead to this world and dead to their old bodies and in that state of mind... become locked in the prison in death where all those who died at the flood are also .
there is no new body except for those "saved".
the Ignorant and everyone is freakin out about a "burning hell" for eternity.. I don't think that is the worst option of judgement that could be used or as it exsists ....
now there is something God called "outside".. but it is most likely bodiless "and waterless places"..
Rev 22:14
¶
Blessed are those who do His commandments,[fn] that they may have the right to the eat from the TREE OF LIFE , and may enter through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15
But[fn] outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
those aware who are OUT side is not being "Saved", the may be eternal but that isn't saved .. there is no life there !!! there is way worse things than a firey hell.
Mat 12:43
“Now when the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and does not find it.
Luk 11:24
“When the unclean spirit goes out of [fn]a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and not finding any, it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.'
and it certainly is not anything anyone should consider being "saved" to> eternal awareness is not LIFE eternal , I mean demons prefer living in pigs ( story of legends) to living in such places "Outside" and those "dry
and waterless places " .. awareness is not life.. it is not in a body... it seems nirvana is real.. but just that demons prefer living in PIGs to that kind of "nirvana"..that sort of bodiless existence for eternity..
sure they will be like the angels . they won't be able to do anything without a body much less have sex with someone else.
salvation means an eternal body that lives and breaths and has passions/pleasure for ever more. are in his hands ....., the bodies are for the lawful and loving.
I will leave it there, with no further comment from Rose, on this great mystery of which we are in discourse.
That's just as well, Rose, because I've had my say on this particular topic. I believe that I'm (scripturally) right and that you are (scripturally) wrong. My continuing to cover the same ground again and again is pointless. That said, I'm sure your day as well as my day will not be too adversely affected by the contents of 1 Peter anyway.
For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
It does NOT say preached even to the NOW dead
Why even say NOW dead, it would have been painfully obvious to any of Peters listeners that those who died in the flood in Noah's day were dead.
<sigh>
As I just stated to Rose ...there is no point to my covering the same ground needlessly. Just one more time, though ...the Bible does not say that Jesus preached to billions of decomposed 'lost souls in hell' during the interim of crucifixion and resurrection. There is no hell, other than the 'nothingness' of the grave. And, there are certainly no zombies in the grave waiting for Jesus to preach the Gospel to them. Reading the Bible in this manner and applying ridiculous interpretations (even if approved by mainstream Christianity in general) is one of the reasons why I can't in all honesty promote organized religion to anyone these days.
Anyway, put 1 Peter behind you and have a good day.
that is those in living/ the righteous including Abraham.. ( does his word not say" Abraham Isaac and Jacob".... "you do greatly err God is not God of the dead but of the living" ), their new bodies and souls were in "Paradise" . Jesus only had to release them from there .. ..these seen then are not those locked in the prison parts of hell/death.
you have created a blanket/sheet that you want to cover anything aware..... that just isn't there. there is a division between those "living" and those "dead" .. and it has nothing to do with the physicality of our here and nows. men who are phyically aware in this day and time can and are dead as a doornail to anything of the spiritual Father, Son, Spirit, heaven( earth and heavens kingdoms ), eternity etc .
they are locked in the prison of their own minds and when dead to this world and dead to their old bodies and in that state of mind... become locked in the prison in death where all those who died at the flood are also .
there is no new body except for those "saved".
the Ignorant and everyone is freakin out about a "burning hell" for eternity.. I don't think that is the worst option of judgement that could be used or as it exsists ....
now there is something God called "outside".. but it is most likely bodiless "and waterless places"..
Rev 22:14
¶
Blessed are those who do His commandments,[fn] that they may have the right to the eat from the TREE OF LIFE , and may enter through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15
But[fn] outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
those aware who are OUT side is not being "Saved", the may be eternal but that isn't saved .. there is no life there !!! there is way worse things than a firey hell.
.
Keep reading because those same scriptures go on to say that those OUTSIDE the gate have right to the tree of life and can enter in through the gates.
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