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Actually, the perfect-passive-participle sesosmenoi (σεσῳσμένοι) that is used in Ephesians 2:8 should be translated as YOU ARE BEING SAVED, not you are saved. However, that won't matter to you, so I will leave you with your own understanding regarding the others as well.
My friend, I had to rub my bloodshot eyes! I thought the resident scholar was speaking of the present continuous action of "be being". I trust some day he will wake up.
Can we be forever saved after once saved?
I used to think I believe in the Lord Jesus and I'd already been saved, because the Bible records, "For with the heart man believes to righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made to salvation" (Romans 10:10). So I thought we were saved by faith and forever saved. But in these years of following the Lord, I found I couldn't put the Lord's word into practice, conduct as the Lord requires. When it involves my interests, I can quarrel with my colleagues for my personal reputation and status, openly rebuke them, even regard them as my enemies. I don't have any patience and tolerance, let alone loving others as myself. Every day I live in the state of sinning by day and confessing at night. Especially when I saw the Bible says, "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14) and God's word "… you shall therefore be holy, for I am holy" (Leviticus 11:45), I know God wants us to love others. However, I treat my colleagues with anger, can't live out the Lord's word. Though the Lord Jesus was crucified for us and forgave our sin, I still constantly sin, haven't been holy as the Lord requires. Then can I enter the kingdom of heaven if I continue believing in this way? Therefore, I felt upset.
I often asked brothers and sisters about my troubles. A friend shared with me two passages, "Though man has been redeemed and forgiven of his sins, it is only considered as God not remembering the transgressions of man and not treating man in accordance with man’s transgressions. However, when man lives in the flesh and he has not been set free from sin, he can only continue to sin, endlessly revealing the corrupt satanic disposition. This is the life that man leads, an endless cycle of sin and forgiveness. The majority of men sin in the day only to confess in the evening. As such, even if the sin offering is forever effective for man, it would not be able to save man from sin. Only half the work of salvation has been completed, for man still has corrupt disposition.""A sinner such as you, who has just been redeemed, and has not been changed, or been perfected by God, can you be after God’s heart? For you, you who are still of your old self, it is true that you were saved by Jesus, and that you are not counted as a sinner because of the salvation of God, but this does not prove that you are not sinful, and are not impure. How can you be saintly if you have not been changed? Within, you are beset by impurity, selfish and mean, yet you still wish to descend with Jesus—you should be so lucky! You have missed a step in your belief in God: You have merely been redeemed, but have not been changed. For you to be after God’s heart, God must personally do the work of changing and cleansing you; if you are only redeemed, you will be incapable of attaining sanctity. In this way you will be unqualified to share in the good blessings of God, for you have missed out a step in God’s work of managing man, which is the key step of changing and perfecting. And so you, a sinner who has just been redeemed, are incapable of directly inheriting God’s inheritance." From the words, I understand the Lord Jesus just did the work of redemption, didn't do the work of changing man's disposition, so though people have been redeemed by the Lord Jesus, the root of sins still exists within man. So God needs to do the work of removing sin. We know God is holy and righteous. If we're not holy, we can't see the Lord. God doesn't allow the filthy and corrupt people to enter His kingdom, this is decided by God's righteous disposition. Thanks be to the Lord. These words resolved my confusion.
Salvation is anything but the goal one should seek, salvation is being on the bottom rung of heaven, and believe it or not, most people set their goal to actually become the least in the kingdom of heaven along with their salvation, and this is salvation alone, and this is not even close to the goal.
Jesus told us that a person could decide not to keep any of the laws of Moses and that he could even teach others not to keep the law, AND THEY COULD EVEN SPEAK AGAINST JESUS HIMSLEF AND STILL BE SAVED.
But a person who sets his goal to become the least in the kingdom is not a WISE PERSON WITH A good goal. We should all know what heaven is, we should all know what the difference is from the lowest in the kingdom to the greatest in the kingdom because Jesus explains both of these places and the reasons one is sent to the outer court of darkness instead of the higher Zoe kingdom.
Even though Jesus tells us in plan clear words what gets a person into the least in the kingdom of heaven, PEOPLE STILL SET THEIR GOAL TO BECOME THE LEAST.
I DO KNOW HOW THIS MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL, THAT A PERSON WOULD ACTUALLY CHOOSE TO BE THE LEAST, AND THIS IS NOT MY OPINION, IT IS WHAT THE LORD JESUS TEACHES US. YOU WANT TO DISRESPECT THE LAW, AND YOU WANT TO TEACH OTHERS TO BECOME LAWLESS? THEN THERE SHOULD BE NO QUESTION AS TO WHERE YOU ARE HEADED, BUT AT LEAST THERE IS SALVAION IN THAT OUTER COURT OF DARKNESS, I JUST WOULDN'T SET MY GOALS TO MAKE IT THERE.
As usual, you completely disregard what the Bible says. Salvation from the penalty of sin is present tense. It happens the very moment you believe in Christ. That doesn't mean that you won't die physically, but the moment you believe in Christ eternal life is a reality.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
''You are saved'' is present active indicative. John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
''has eternal life'' is present active indicative.
1 John 5:11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
''has given'' is aorist indicative.
If believers weren't saved in this life then they wouldn't receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or be baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
Actually, the perfect-passive-participlesesosmenoi (σεσῳσμένοι) that is used in Ephesians 2:8 should be translated as YOU ARE BEING SAVED, not you are saved. However, that won't matter to you, so I will leave you with your own understanding regarding the others as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Actually, most translations, translate it as 'you have been saved' even though the word ἐστε - 'you are' is present tense, active voice. The participle σεσῳσμένοι - 'saved' is perfect tense. The perfect tense denotes past action completed with continuing results. ''Perfective aspect focuses on the state on the state or condition resulting from a completed action.'' [David Alan Black, Learn to Read New Testament Greek, p. 14] Therefore, the perfect passive of σεσῳσμένοι is correctly translated as 'you have been saved' which again is how many translations have it. Some translations go with 'you are' saved apparently because the word ἐστε is present tense, active voice.
And since you have acknowledged that Ephesians 2:8 refers to being saved in the present, you can't honestly argue as you did that no one is saved in this life.
You are just having a difficult time believing that ALL WILL BE SAVED according to:
1 Timothy 2:4
... who desires ALL people to be saved and come to full knowledge of [the] truth.
It's an active, ongoing result of a previous action.
And in the ongoing result of that action; desires (wants, wills) ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. The action is indicative. Nowhere is it subjunctive, or that of being contingent or probable, nor imperative on the subject’s response. Neither is it Optative, as in being unlikely or wishful thinking that mankind might come to this salvation and knowledge.
And you merely use the inaccurate translation of aionion, which does not equate to eternity or that which is eternal (aidios) in order to justify your ungodly perception of Eternal Damnation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose2Luv
My friend, I had to rub my bloodshot eyes! I thought the resident scholar was speaking of the present continuous action of "be being". I trust some day he will wake up.
His ideology is one of separation and division. He is not willing to admit that he (and many others) follow a false teaching which entered the Church centuries ago. Therefore, his desire is to support it anyway he can, so it doesn't come crumbling down around him. If it does, so do more of his doctrines which have been taught over the centuries.
You are just having a difficult time believing that ALL WILL BE SAVED according to:
1 Timothy 2:4
... who desires ALL people to be saved and come to full knowledge of [the] truth.
It's an active, ongoing result of a previous action.
And in the ongoing result of that action; desires (wants, wills) ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. The action is indicative. Nowhere is it subjunctive, or that of being contingent or probable, nor imperative on the subject’s response. Neither is it Optative, as in being unlikely or wishful thinking that mankind might come to this salvation and knowledge.
And you merely use the inaccurate translation of aionion, which does not equate to eternity or that which is eternal (aidios) in order to justify your ungodly perception of Eternal Damnation.
His ideology is one of separation and division. He is not willing to admit that he (and many others) follow a false teaching which entered the Church centuries ago. Therefore, his desire is to support it anyway he can, so it doesn't come crumbling down around him. If it does, so do more of his doctrines which have been taught over the centuries.
Very true Jerwade, most of the false church doctrine has got its roots deep in the doctrine of eternal torment.
You are just having a difficult time believing that ALL WILL BE SAVED according to:
1 Timothy 2:4
... who desires ALL people to be saved and come to full knowledge of [the] truth.
It's an active, ongoing result of a previous action.
And in the ongoing result of that action; desires (wants, wills) ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. The action is indicative. Nowhere is it subjunctive, or that of being contingent or probable, nor imperative on the subject’s response. Neither is it Optative, as in being unlikely or wishful thinking that mankind might come to this salvation and knowledge.
And you merely use the inaccurate translation of aionion, which does not equate to eternity or that which is eternal (aidios) in order to justify your ungodly perception of Eternal Damnation.
His ideology is one of separation and division. He is not willing to admit that he (and many others) follow a false teaching which entered the Church centuries ago. Therefore, his desire is to support it anyway he can, so it doesn't come crumbling down around him. If it does, so do more of his doctrines which have been taught over the centuries.
You are now off topic. The topic is not universalism. The topic is the eternal security of the believer.
The problem is people accept Paul who has made up His own doctrine.
Jesus clearly states what happens to those who fall away.
"While you have the light believe in the light and you will become a child of light. "
"Walk in the light while you have it or darkness will come over you."
" Any tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown in the fire. "
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinegrower. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit.
You are just having a difficult time believing that ALL WILL BE SAVED according to:
1 Timothy 2:4
... who desires ALL people to be saved and come to full knowledge of [the] truth.
It's an active, ongoing result of a previous action.
And in the ongoing result of that action; desires (wants, wills) ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. The action is indicative. Nowhere is it subjunctive, or that of being contingent or probable, nor imperative on the subject’s response. Neither is it Optative, as in being unlikely or wishful thinking that mankind might come to this salvation and knowledge.
And you merely use the inaccurate translation of aionion, which does not equate to eternity or that which is eternal (aidios) in order to justify your ungodly perception of Eternal Damnation.
His ideology is one of separation and division. He is not willing to admit that he (and many others) follow a false teaching which entered the Church centuries ago. Therefore, his desire is to support it anyway he can, so it doesn't come crumbling down around him. If it does, so do more of his doctrines which have been taught over the centuries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
You are now off topic. The topic is not universalism. The topic is the eternal security of the believer.
Actually, I am right on target for ALL PEOPLE WILL BE SAVED and COME TO THE FULL KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. And Eternal Damnation will be seen for what it is - a false teaching that condemns even the innocent.
Adam was lain down in a sleep of death so as to take a rib to create a bride, his chest having been exposed. Jesus was lain down in a sleep of death for the same reason, and this reason was to pierce his side that a bride may be taken from his own body on Passover, and this is the two witnesses of any legal marriage where the friend of the bridegroom would have gone to take the sheets in order to show the water and the blood, THESE ARE THE TWO WITNESSES. Pentecost is strictly for a betrotha; to the wife created. Rosh Hashanah is that marriage and then the wedding feast, and then the child born from the consummation, and then the child circumcised on Shemini Ateret. If you are not invited to Shemini Ateret, it is because you are a getile.
From the body, a bride was created from this water and blood, we claim that we are now the bride of Christ and that he dwells within us as a bridegroom.
Adam was lain down in a sleep of death so as to take a rib to create a bride, his chest having been exposed. Jesus was lain down in a sleep of death for the same reason, and this reason was to pierce his side that a bride may be taken from his own body on Passover, and this is the two witnesses of any legal marriage where the friend of the bridegroom would have gone to take the sheets in order to show the water and the blood, THESE ARE THE TWO WITNESSES. Pentecost is strictly for a betrotha; to the wife created. Rosh Hashanah is that marriage and then the wedding feast, and then the child born from the consummation, and then the child circumcised on Shemini Ateret. If you are not invited to Shemini Ateret, it is because you are a getile.
From the body, a bride was created from this water and blood, we claim that we are now the bride of Christ and that he dwells within us as a bridegroom.
Why should we think any different of Adam?
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