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The word raqa (a variant of the word râqîyaʻ), in Job 37:18 refers to the sky being spread out as hard or as strong as a cast metal mirror.
In ancient Jewish writings outside of the Bible, 3 Baruch 3:6-8, reflecting ancient beliefs of a hard, solid sky, has men saying,
''Let us see (whether) the heaven is made of clay, or of 8 brass, or of iron. When God saw this He did not permit them, but smote them with blindness and confusion of speech, and rendered them as thou seest.'' [Bolding mine]
And by the way, Paul H. Seely supports his statements that the ancient peoples, and not just the people of the Ancient Near East, believed that the sky was a solid dome. But one needs to actually read what he says, instead of dismissing what he said when you don't even know what he said.
Here's the problem: You are using 21st century liberal scholars to interpret the Bible. Did you know that according to the Apostles of Christ these people do not have a share in the ministry? These people were instantly excommunicated if you read the NT all the way through. So your sources are not approved by the Apostles of Christ. But lets look at one of your key verses in which you used to support you wall of rhetoric.
Job 37:18, Solid Sky.
This verse is quoted continuously by flat earthers. You cannot even engage in a discussion with a flat earther without having this verse thrown at you out of nowhere (as they will cite the verse with no connection to a discussion about the shape of the earth). They say the Bible teaches us that the sky is solid, like metal. Since flat earthers are KJV Only, lets cite Job 37:18 from the KJV,
"Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?"
Other Translations:
"Thou perhaps hast made the heavens with him, which are most strong, as if they were of molten brass" (Douay-Rheims Bible).
"Can you, like him, spread out the skies,
hard as a cast metal mirror?" (ESV).
"Hast thou stretched out the heavens, which are strong, and as a molten glass?" (1599 Geneva Bible).
"Have you, with Him, spread out the sky,
which is strong and is like a molded mirror?" (MEV).
"With Him, have you spread out the skies,
Strong as a cast metal mirror?" (NKJV).
"can you help God spread out the skies
as hard as a cast metal mirror?" (HCSB).
"can you join him in spreading out the skies,
hard as a mirror of cast bronze?" (NIV).
Well, that's it. We're done. They got us. Close down the churches! Hide in the hills! The Bible is over; disproven!
There is a very simple response to this verse. It is a very easy easy answer. I do not feel it necessary to explain whether or not there is a figurative meaning. The answer is so easy no explanation of this verse is necessary.
The answer: The narrator is Elihu.
What does this mean? It means the narrator was not Job or God and thus the narrator is irrelevant.
Flat earthers will respond: "But its in the Bible!" This does not remove the irrelevancy of Elihu's narration. His words are part of a dialogue but they do not effect our church doctrine. Now if Job or God said this then I would go into a deeper explanation. But since the narrator is Elihu there is no reason to provide any explanation longer than this one.
Obviously the scholars have no idea what 5they are talking about.
Please chapter and verse from the Bible where it says the earth is flat?
One such verse showing that the ancient Hebrews thought of the earth as a flat round circle, similar to the beliefs of the Babylonians, is reflected in Isaiah 40:22 where God is said to sit above the circle of the earth. The word used for circle is 'chug' which refers to a circle as drawn by a compass. It does not refer to a sphere. If the writer of Isaiah had intended to depict the earth as a sphere he could have used the word 'dur' which refers to a ball as in Isaiah 22:18. I refer you to the Babylonian map of the world which was posted in post #18 which shows the earth as a flat round circle surrounded by water.
In Daniel's dream from God in Daniel 4, he sees a great tree in the midst of the earth which is so high that he can see to the end of the whole earth. The imagery is that of a flat earth, given to Daniel in terms that he would understand.
And it's not just a flat earth which the Hebrew Bible depicts, but an earth that is above the waters, and supported by pillars, with a hard dome covering the earth. I refer you to the entry in the Jewish Encylopedia in post #24, and to the statement made in 3 Baruch 3:6-8 where, reflecting the ancient belief of a solid sky, it is written, ''Let us see (whether) the heaven is made of clay, or of 8 brass, or of iron. When God saw this He did not permit them, but smote them with blindness and confusion of speech, and rendered them as thou seest.'' [Bolding mine] (See post # 19).
The scholars are not obviously wrong because you disagree with them. If you are to understand the Bible you must understand it within its context which is that of an Ancient Near Eastern writing. And the ANE culture had a view of the cosmos which was quite different from ours.
Again, the bible does not teach a flat earth, the bible does not teach a 6- 24 hour day creation, the bible does not teach that the Earth is 6000 years old, the bible does not teach against evolution, it explains evolution, but more than anything else, the bible does not teach a flat Earth and you can read all the scholars you want but that doesn't mean the scholars are right. Bring me some scholars and I could ask them questions all day that they couldn't answer because they haven't been given eyes to see or ears to hear that they should know the truth about anything at all.
The Truth of Jesus is right there for all to see, and I can't even convince you of what our Lord said.
The Bible defends evolution? What is the 5th word?
One such verse showing that the ancient Hebrews thought of the earth as a flat round circle, similar to the beliefs of the Babylonians, is reflected in Isaiah 40:22 where God is said to sit above the circle of the earth. The word used for circle is 'chug' which refers to a circle as drawn by a compass. It does not refer to a sphere. If the writer of Isaiah had intended to depict the earth as a sphere he could have used the word 'dur' which refers to a ball as in Isaiah 22:18. I refer you to the Babylonian map of the world which was posted in post #18 which shows the earth as a flat round circle surrounded by water.
In Daniel's dream from God in Daniel 4, he sees a great tree in the midst of the earth which is so high that he can see to the end of the whole earth. The imagery is that of a flat earth, given to Daniel in terms that he would understand.
And it's not just a flat earth which the Hebrew Bible depicts, but an earth that is above the waters, and supported by pillars, with a hard dome covering the earth. I refer you to the entry in the Jewish Encylopedia in post #24, and to the statement made in 3 Baruch 3:6-8 where, reflecting the ancient belief of a solid sky, it is written, ''Let us see (whether) the heaven is made of clay, or of 8 brass, or of iron. When God saw this He did not permit them, but smote them with blindness and confusion of speech, and rendered them as thou seest.'' [Bolding mine] (See post # 19).
The scholars are not obviously wrong because you disagree with them. If you are to understand the Bible you must understand it within its context which is that of an Ancient Near Eastern writing. And the ANE culture had a view of the cosmos which was quite different from ours.
A Challenge to Isaiah 40:22
There are some online articles which ask the question as to why Isaiah didn’t use the Hebrew word “dur” which carries the meaning of “ball.” This question, however, is irrelevant because we cannot go back in time and ask Isaiah this question. But wait, Strong’s H1754 does define dur as a circle, ball or pile (or to move in a circle, surround, TWOT). The verse often cited by atheists is Isa.22:18 in which they ask why Isaiah didn’t use the word dur? More interesting is TWOT’s explanation of the word #418. The word was used to mean “to heap up” or “to pile something.” It can be used to mean “go in a circle.” But the word is more closely associated to dor (#1887, New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Vo.1) which is used to mean “lap in a race, cycle of time, lifetime.” Nothing I had read would lead me to the conclusion that it would be used to describe the shape of the earth. Hebrew words carried meanings that don’t always go along with the meaning of word translated into English.
But I have a question for flat earthers: Why didn’t Isaiah use the Hebrew word “machabath” (Strong’s H4227)?
The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,
"4227. machabath, makh-ab-ath'; from the same as 2281; a pan for baking in:--pan [5x]. See TWOT -- 600b; BDB -- 292b, 561d”
Since flat earthers like to cite from TWOT, why can’t they find the right word which better describes their flat plate like model of the earth they designed for the Biblical view of the earth? Surely this word would have been better than chuwg? It could have been translated “...the pan of the earth” or “the griddle of the earth.” But there is another word which means flat.
Strong’s H8478 is found in Joshua 6:5, 20; which is the Hebrew word tachath which was used to describe the walls of Jericho “that the wall fell down flat “ (Joshua 6:20). The word translated flat is tachath.
So why wasn’t another Hebrew word which means flat used in Isaiah 40:22? Why couldn’t the verse just literally translate “the flatness of the earth”? Surely if the earth was flat and plate shaped Isaiah would have used the right word to communicate that message. The word translated circle does not mean flat as the earth is circular in shape. The definition of round carries a broad meaning in English.
“It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in” (KJV).
Other Translations:
"That he sytteth vpon the Circle of the worlde, and that all the inhabitours of the worlde are in coparison of him, but as greshoppers: That he spredeth out the heaues as a coueringe, that he stretcheth them out, as. a tent to dwell in" (1535 Coverdale Bible).
"It is he that sitteth vpon the circle of the world, whole inhabiters are [in comparison of him] but as grasshoppers: *he spreadeth out the heauens as a couering, he stretcheth them out as a tent to dwell in" (1568 Bishop's Bible).
“It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in” (NKJV).
“It is He who sits upon the circle of the earth,
and the inhabitants are as grasshoppers,
who stretches out the heavens as a curtain,
and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in” (MEV).
“God sits above the circle of the earth.
The people below seem like grasshoppers to him!
He spreads out the heavens like a curtain
and makes his tent from them” (NLT).
"It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (Douay-Rheims Bible).
“It is he who sits above the circle of the earth,
and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers;
who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
and spreads them like a tent to dwell in” (RSV).
“It is he who sits above the circle of the earth,
and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers;
who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
and spreads them like a tent to dwell in” (ESV).
“He sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers, he stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out, as a tent to dwell in” (1599 Geneva Bible).
The English word “circle” is the Hebrew “Chuwg,” which means to describe a circle---compass, as in a compassing circle (as in a globe shape, 3D circle). It also means circuit (Strong’s numbers H2328, H2329) Therefore chuwg (or khug) is used to describe a circle that compasses itself. The English word compass used as a verb means to surround; to encircle; to environ; to stretch round, while encompass (also used as a verb) is to form a circle around; to encircle. As a noun the word compass means a magnetic or electronic device used to determine the cardinal directions (usually magnetic or true north). The flat earth conspiracists reject the four cardinal directions in their flat earth model. They reject the reality that the polar regions (North and South) exist. https://wikidiff.com/compass/encompass
Henry Morris Study Bible,
“40:22 circle of the earth. Hebrew khug, translated “compassed” in Job 26:10 and “compass” in Proverbs 8:27. All three, in context, clearly refer to the spherical shape of the earth.
40:22 stretcheth out the heavens. This phrase is possibly a reference to the expanding universe, as envisioned by modern astronomers. There are numerous references in Scripture to the “stretching-out” or “spreading-out” of the heavens (space) when God created the universe. See, for example, Job 9:8; Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 42:5; 44:24; 51:13; Jeremiah 10:12. Alternatively, the “heavens” referred to here may refer simply to the atmospheric heavens, spread out like a curtain or “tent to dwell in” around a circle of the earth. This atmospheric “tent”, refracting and spreading light over the hemisphere, is sharply distinct from the darkness outside.”
Jamieson, Fausset & Brown: Commentary on the Whole Bible,
“It is he--rather, connected to the last verse, Have ye not known?--have ye not understood Him that sitteth...? (vs.26) [MAUDER]. Circle--applicable to the globular form of the earth, above which, and the vault of the sky around it, above it, He sits. For “upon” translate “above.” as grasshoppers--or locusts in His sight (Num.13:33), as He looks down from on high (Ps.33:13, 14; 113:4-6).”
Matthew Henry's Commentary
"Now that which is here said of God is (1.) That he has command of all creatures. The heaven and the earth themselves are under his management: He sits upon the circle, or globe, of the earth, v. 22. He that has the special residence of his glory in the upper world maintains a dominion over the lower world, gives law to it, and directs all the motions of it to his own glory. He sits undisturbed upon the earth, and establishes it. He is still stretching out the heavens, his power and providence keep them still stretched out, and will do so till the comes that they shall be rolled together like a scroll. He spreads them out as easily as we draw a curtain to and fro, opening these curtains in the morning and drawing them close again at night. And the heaven is to this earth as a tent to dwell in; it is a canopy drawn over our heads, et quod tegit omnia coelum --- and it encircles all. --Ovid. See Ps.104:2 (2.) That the children of men, even the greatest and mightiest, are as nothing before him. The numerous inhabitants of this earth are in his eye as grasshoppers in ours, so little and inconsiderable, of such small value, of such little use, and so easily crushed. Proud men's lifting up themselves is but like the grasshopper's leap; in an instant they must stoop down to the earth again. If the spies thought themselves as grasshoppers before the sons of Anak (Num.13:33), what are we before the great God? Grasshoppers live but awhile, and live carelessly, not like the ant; so do the most men. (3.) That those who appear and act against him, how formidable soever they may be to their fellow-creatures, will certainly be humble and brought down by the mighty hand of God."
Here is 4th century Bishop Ambrose giving a reading from Isaiah 40:22.
"And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).
06-11-2018, 03:33 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploughboy
Here's the problem: You are using 21st century liberal scholars to interpret the Bible. Did you know that according to the Apostles of Christ these people do not have a share in the ministry? These people were instantly excommunicated if you read the NT all the way through. So your sources are not approved by the Apostles of Christ.
In other words, I don't like what scholars have to say and can't refute it so I'll just bad mouth them and try to marginalize them and hope no one notices!
Quote:
Job 37:18, Solid Sky.
The answer: The narrator is Elihu.
What does this mean? It means the narrator was not Job or God and thus the narrator is irrelevant.
Yet the noun form of the same word is used in Genesis 1:6, Dan.12:3, and Ezek.1:22 showing that this dome/firmament/sky was like a shinny metal mirror. Thus still relevant!
Quote:
The narrator is irrelevant.
No, the narrator in that verse is reflecting the Bible's and the ANE cosmology.
There are some online articles which ask the question as to why Isaiah didn’t use the Hebrew word “dur” which carries the meaning of “ball.” This question, however, is irrelevant because we cannot go back in time and ask Isaiah this question. But wait, Strong’s H1754 does define dur as a circle, ball or pile (or to move in a circle, surround, TWOT). The verse often cited by atheists is Isa.22:18 in which they ask why Isaiah didn’t use the word dur? More interesting is TWOT’s explanation of the word #418. The word was used to mean “to heap up” or “to pile something.” It can be used to mean “go in a circle.” But the word is more closely associated to dor (#1887, New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Vo.1) which is used to mean “lap in a race, cycle of time, lifetime.” Nothing I had read would lead me to the conclusion that it would be used to describe the shape of the earth. Hebrew words carried meanings that don’t always go along with the meaning of word translated into English.
But I have a question for flat earthers: Why didn’t Isaiah use the Hebrew word “machabath” (Strong’s H4227)?
The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,
"4227. machabath, makh-ab-ath'; from the same as 2281; a pan for baking in:--pan [5x]. See TWOT -- 600b; BDB -- 292b, 561d”
Since flat earthers like to cite from TWOT, why can’t they find the right word which better describes their flat plate like model of the earth they designed for the Biblical view of the earth? Surely this word would have been better than chuwg? It could have been translated “...the pan of the earth” or “the griddle of the earth.” But there is another word which means flat.
Strong’s H8478 is found in Joshua 6:5, 20; which is the Hebrew word tachath which was used to describe the walls of Jericho “that the wall fell down flat “ (Joshua 6:20). The word translated flat is tachath.
So why wasn’t another Hebrew word which means flat used in Isaiah 40:22? Why couldn’t the verse just literally translate “the flatness of the earth”? Surely if the earth was flat and plate shaped Isaiah would have used the right word to communicate that message. The word translated circle does not mean flat as the earth is circular in shape. The definition of round carries a broad meaning in English.
Very good points. Oops they were sharp so the word "point" is appropriate even if they are not literally sharp. Humm can it be some want an absolute meaning rather than the one inherent in the context?
Here's the problem: You are using 21st century liberal scholars to interpret the Bible. Did you know that according to the Apostles of Christ these people do not have a share in the ministry? These people were instantly excommunicated if you read the NT all the way through. So your sources are not approved by the Apostles of Christ. But lets look at one of your key verses in which you used to support you wall of rhetoric.
Job 37:18, Solid Sky.
This verse is quoted continuously by flat earthers. You cannot even engage in a discussion with a flat earther without having this verse thrown at you out of nowhere (as they will cite the verse with no connection to a discussion about the shape of the earth). They say the Bible teaches us that the sky is solid, like metal. Since flat earthers are KJV Only, lets cite Job 37:18 from the KJV,
"Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?"
Other Translations:
"Thou perhaps hast made the heavens with him, which are most strong, as if they were of molten brass" (Douay-Rheims Bible).
"Can you, like him, spread out the skies,
hard as a cast metal mirror?" (ESV).
"Hast thou stretched out the heavens, which are strong, and as a molten glass?" (1599 Geneva Bible).
"Have you, with Him, spread out the sky,
which is strong and is like a molded mirror?" (MEV).
"With Him, have you spread out the skies,
Strong as a cast metal mirror?" (NKJV).
"can you help God spread out the skies
as hard as a cast metal mirror?" (HCSB).
"can you join him in spreading out the skies,
hard as a mirror of cast bronze?" (NIV).
Well, that's it. We're done. They got us. Close down the churches! Hide in the hills! The Bible is over; disproven!
There is a very simple response to this verse. It is a very easy easy answer. I do not feel it necessary to explain whether or not there is a figurative meaning. The answer is so easy no explanation of this verse is necessary.
The answer: The narrator is Elihu.
What does this mean? It means the narrator was not Job or God and thus the narrator is irrelevant.
Flat earthers will respond: "But its in the Bible!" This does not remove the irrelevancy of Elihu's narration. His words are part of a dialogue but they do not effect our church doctrine. Now if Job or God said this then I would go into a deeper explanation. But since the narrator is Elihu there is no reason to provide any explanation longer than this one.
The narrator is irrelevant.
No, that is not the problem. I've already demonstrated in a number of posts now that the Bible, as well as the ANE understood the earth as being flat. I've even shown an ancient Babylonian map of the earth which depicts the earth as a flat round circle surrounded by water. I've shown that the Bible teaches a three tier model of the world with the heavens above, the earth below, and the waters that are below the earth.
Further, I've shown from an ancient extra Biblical book ( 3 Baruch) a statement reflecting the belief that the sky was solid. See post #33. The ancient literature, including the Bible depicts the cosmology shown in the depictions below.
Don't be so fast to dismiss modern scholarship while trying to promote yourself as an expert on the subject. Your statement from post #12 - ''I have mastered this well and prepared to challenge the most distinguished professors in the world.'' is a bit arrogant and hypocritical.
Too many people, such as yourself, simply are not willing to revise their beliefs based on facts. It's much easier to simply disregard the facts and keep believing what you believe.
The simple matter of the fact is that the scholars you dismiss know that the ANE cosmology involved a flat earth. I even showed an ancient Babylonian map which depicts a flat round earth. The language of the Old Testament reflects this view of the earth.
As far as I have seen, you haven't showed anything, besides this, as far as I am concerned, flat earth belief is a myth.
Plenty of places to google that say this flat earth mentality only exist in the mind of the person trying to insult the other, I don't believe anyone ever saw the Earth as flat, it is just to insult.
The it makes me wonder about the people claiming that other people said the Earth was flat. It is a NONE issue, ONLY IN YOUR MIND.
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