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Old 06-14-2018, 06:58 PM
 
Location: the Kingdom of His dear Son
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose2Luv View Post
Aionios and the Hebrew olam cannot support the idea of endless...simply cannot.
Olam=

Long duration, antiquity, futurity.

Strong's Hebrew: 5769. ?????? (olam) -- long duration, antiquity, futurity
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Old 06-14-2018, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Free State of Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose2Luv View Post
It is all about what will happen to us, is it not? I will be glad to answer what will happen to us>>>>>>>>

"From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, and in Him the all ends/consummates"
So, we will just...end?
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Old 06-14-2018, 07:15 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,344,506 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
He wasn't describing life Eternal (aidios) for the believer or Eternal (aidios) damnation for those deemed unworthy, that's why he didn't use the word aidios. Read this without a preconceived bias: ETERNITY EXPLAINED
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
You on the other hand want me to read other people's opinions because you can't stomach what Jesus plainly said.
I don't have to concern myself with something that's not even close to the truth. But you go ahead and follow the perceptions of others with their condemnation. If nothing else annihilation would come closer than that of eternal damnation for a finite life. Although I don't see much truth in that either. However, it takes an abnormal and twisted mind to believe in the suffering of others on an infinite scale.
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Old 06-14-2018, 07:30 PM
 
Location: Arizona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Let me try this one more time.

aidios implies continual duration... it is true eternal - meaning eternal past and eternal future. That describes the existence of God alone. Jesus never used this word in the Bible. Paul used it in describing God's power.

aionios implies perpetuity... meaning from a certain point forward to an eternal future. This does not include the eternal past aspect from aidios above. All humans have a start point. No humans have existed from eternity past.


It would be incorrect for Jesus to use the term aidios, because the life He gives does not extend backwards into eternity... but only forwards. That is aionios. Unfortunately He used the same term to describe punishment that some will endure.



You are asking to prove a term that does not fit the life we have in Christ.

Eternal life for humans is never aidios (because we all have a starting point and do not extend backwards in eternity).

Eternal life for humans is aionios (eternity forward from a staring point in time).
Nonsense, ages upon ages eventually come to an end, just as your life will come to an end one day.
As did your fathers, and his father before him. It's within the frame work of time, not outside of it.
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Old 06-14-2018, 07:37 PM
 
435 posts, read 250,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Let me try this one more time.

aidios implies continual duration... it is true eternal - meaning eternal past and eternal future. That describes the existence of God alone. Jesus never used this word in the Bible. Paul used it in describing God's power.
If AIDIOS "describes the existence of God alone", then why is it used to describe "chains" (Jude 1:6)?

Are those AIDIOS chains (Jude 1:6) the "true eternal - meaning eternal past and eternal future"?

If AIDIOS is the "true eternal - meaning eternal past and eternal future", then why is it used as follows:

"In the Axiochus (372A3), we read of the "everlasting punishments" [AIDIOS TIMORIA] of those great sinners, like the Danaids and Tantalus, who have been condemned to the underworld..." ("Terms For Eternity..." by Ramelli & Konstan, 2013, p.12).

Had those sinners been punished since the "eternal past" as per your definition? No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
aionios implies perpetuity... meaning from a certain point forward to an eternal future. This does not include the eternal past aspect from aidios above. All humans have a start point. No humans have existed from eternity past.
That's your unproven opinion without any evidence to support it. It is refuted by my post showing examples of aionios used of finite duration.

"perpetuity...the quality or state of being perpetual"

"perpetual...occurring continually : indefinitely long-continued . perpetual problems"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perpetual

Evidently "perpetual" can refer to a finite duration that is not eternal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
It would be incorrect for Jesus to use the term aidios, because the life He gives does not extend backwards into eternity... but only forwards. That is aionios. Unfortunately He used the same term to describe punishment that some will endure.
Really? God's life does "not extend backwards into eternity"? So then you believe there was a time when God didn't have "life"? And the life He gives was not eternal in the past?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
You are asking to prove a term that does not fit the life we have in Christ.

Eternal life for humans is never aidios (because we all have a starting point and do not extend backwards in eternity).

Eternal life for humans is aionios (eternity forward from a staring point in time).
I can provide additional examples to that cited above where AIDIOS does not, as you allege, refer to eternity past.
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Old 06-14-2018, 08:11 PM
 
435 posts, read 250,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose2Luv View Post
Thanks for that interesting page Rose2Luv.

Also for:

Jonathan Mitchell N.T. Translation

http://www.greater-emmanuel.org/jmt/
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Old 06-14-2018, 09:12 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,344,506 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClementofA View Post
If AIDIOS "describes the existence of God alone", then why is it used to describe "chains" (Jude 1:6)?
It has to do with his eternal (Aidios) power to hold them. However, if people read carefully, they would see a difference between Jude 1:6 and that of Jude 1:7. They do not use the same Greek Word as the fire speaks to that of an age or period of time, not something that is without a beginning or an end.
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Old 06-14-2018, 09:28 PM
 
435 posts, read 250,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
It has to do with his eternal (Aidios) power to hold them. However, if people read carefully, they would see a difference between Jude 1:6 and that of Jude 1:7. They do not use the same Greek Word as the fire speaks to that of an age or period of time, not something that is without a beginning or an end.


Yes, that's how i see it too.

The chains are eternal, they last forever, but they can be unlocked to loose their prisoners.

In Jude 6 it is used of those kept in aidios chains until the day of judgement.

So, in this instance, aidios & the chains are without beginning or end.
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Old 06-14-2018, 10:48 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,344,506 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
If you want to believe otherwise, that's your choice. However, his eternal (aidios) power and divine nature are the only things which are Eternal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
And because God is eternal. so is his wrath.
Do you really believe that God will be furious, vengeful and wrathful for ALL ETERNITY?

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Old 06-14-2018, 11:06 PM
 
435 posts, read 250,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
So let me get this straight...

Matthew 25:46 - "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The same Greek word is used. Are you telling me these are used differently?
Maybe. Maybe not. Either way universalism is Bible truth & "eternal" is a deceptive translation.

Is aionios used "differently" in each of its two occurrences in Rom.16:25-26? Is the aionios God (Rom.16:26) of the same duration as "long ages" (Rom.16:25, NIV, NASB, ESV, NET, WEY, YLT, etc) during which a revelation was kept secret (v.25) but is "now revealed" (v.26a)? Why, then, is it assumed aionios life must be of the same duration as aionios punishment (Mt.25:46)?

Is a tall building the same height as a tall blade of grass? No. Why, then, is it assumed aionios life must be of the same duration as aionios punishment (Mt.25:46)? In the sentence "The blessed stay in a tall high rise, but the wicked in a tall dungeon", is the high rise equally as tall as the dungeon?

Just as the adjective tall varies with what it refers to, so also the adjective aionion (eonian) varies with what it refers to. A tall man is not the same size as a tall tree or highrise or mountain. Likewise:

"So of aiónion; applied to Jonah's residence in the fish, it means seventy hours; to the priesthood of Aaron, it signifies several centuries; to the mountains, thousands of years; to the punishments of a merciful God, as long as is necessary to vindicate his law and reform his children; to God himself, eternity." AIN -- AINIOS

Similarly, a long life need not be of the same duration as a long punishment. A perpetual life is not necessarily of the same duration as a perpetual punishment.

Is the aion of an ant of the same duration as the aion of a tree?

"There are as many eons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one eon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow’s life, another of an oak’s life. The length of the eon depends on the subject to which it is attached." (WORD STUDIES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT by MARVIN R. VINCENT, D.D."
https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/book...-R-Vincent.pdf

Is the church age eon of the same duration as the internet age eon? Is the eon of a geological age of the same duration as the millennial eon? If not, then why should eonian in Mt.25:46 have to be of the same duration in reference to punishment & life?

If believers go into the life aionios (i.e. pertaining to the age to come) & unbelievers go into the punishment aionios (i.e. pertaining to the age to come), does that prove that the punishment must absolutely be co-extensive with the life? No. Does it prove that the age to come is not finite? No.

Could both occurrences of aionios in Mt.25:46 refer to a finite age (or ages) to come? Yes.

If aionios is of equal duration in both occurrences of Mt.25:46, shouldn't "all mankind" (Rom.5:18), "the many" (Rom.5:19) and "all" (1 Cor.15:22, 28) be co-extensive in number in these passages:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in ALL.

"Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases. However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when aionios referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether."

"Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet...An adjective relates to the noun it modifies."
Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"...It is simply contrary to historical fact to suggest that the essence of these time expressions is that of endless duration. As Thomas De Quincey, the nineteenth century essayist and literary critic states: “All this speculation, first and last, is pure nonsense. Aiõnios does not mean ‘eternal,’ neither does it mean of limited duration . . . . What is an aiõn? The duration or cycle of existence which belongs to any object, not individually of itself, but universally, in right of its genius [i.e., inherent nature] . . . . The exact amount of the duration expressed by an aiõn depends altogether upon the particular subject which yields the aiõn.” "
http://www.concordant.org/exposition...on-part-three/

Philosophy professor Tom Talbott, author of "The Inescapable Love of God", remarked:

"Whatever its correct translation, “aionios” is clearly an adjective and must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies. For more often than not, the noun helps to determine the precise force of the adjective. As an illustration, set aside the Greek word “aionios” for a moment and consider the English word “everlasting.” I think it safe to say that the basic meaning of this English word is indeed everlasting. So now consider how the precise force of “everlasting” varies depending upon which noun it qualifies. An everlasting struggle would no doubt be a struggle without end, an unending temporal process that never comes to a point of resolution and never gets completed. But an everlasting change, or an everlasting correction, or an everlasting transformation would hardly be an unending temporal process that never gets completed; instead, it would be a temporal process of limited duration, or perhaps simply an instantaneous event, that terminates in an irreversible state. So however popular it might be, the argument that “aionios” must have exactly the same force regardless of which noun it qualifies in Matthew 25:46 is clearly fallacious."

"Accordingly, even if we should translate “aionios” with the English word “everlasting,” a lot would still depend upon how we understand the relevant nouns in our text: the nouns “life” (zoe) and “punishment” (kolasis). Now the kind of life in question, being rightly related to God, is clearly an end in itself, even as the kind of punishment in question seems just as clearly to be a means to an end. For as one New Testament scholar, William Barclay, has pointed out, “kolasis” “was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better.” Barclay also claimed that “in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment”–which is probably a bit of a stretch, since the language of correction and the language of retribution often get mixed together in ordinary language. But in any event, if “kolasis” does signify punishment of a remedial or a corrective kind, as I think it does in Matthew 25:46, then we can reasonably think of such punishment as everlasting in the sense that its corrective effects literally endure forever. Or, to put it another way: An everlasting correction, whenever successfully completed, would be a temporal process of limited duration that terminates in the irreversible state of being rightly related to God. Certainly nothing in the context of Matthew 25 excludes such an interpretation."

"This would not be my preferred interpretation, however, because the English word “everlasting” does not accurately capture the special religious meaning that “aionios” typically has in the New Testament."

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalis...w-25-41-46/284

https://www.amazon.com/Inescapable-L...mg_top?ie=UTF8

Here are some literal & other translations of Mt.25:46:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Translation of the New Testament from the Original Greek Humbly Attempted by Nathaniel Scarlett Assisted by Men of Piety & Literature with notes, 1798:
"And These will go away into onian punishment: but the righteous into onian life."

The New Testament by Abner Kneeland, 1823:
"And these shall go away into aionian punishment*: but the righteous into aionian life."

The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson, 1884:
"And these shall go away into onian chastisement, and the just into onian life."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

The Holy Bible in Modern English, 1903
"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life."

The New Testament in Modern Speech, 1910:
"And these shall go away into the Punishment 1 of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life 1 of the Ages."
1. [Of the Ages] Greek "aeonian."

A Critical Paraphrase of the New Testament by Vincent T. Roth, 1960
"And these shall go away into age-continuing punishment, but the righteous into life age-continuing."

The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, 1976
"And these shall go away into age-abiding *correction, but the righteous into **age-abiding life."

The Twentieth Century New Testament, 1900
"And these last will go away into onian punishment, but the righteous into onian life."

The People's New Covenant, 1925
"And these will depart into age-continuing correction, but the righteous, into age-continuing life."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958
"And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life."

The New Testament, a Translation, 1938
"And these will go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life."

The New Testament, A New Translation, 1980
"Then they will begin to serve a new period of suffering; but God's faithful will enter upon their heavenly life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

Jonathan Mitchell N.T. Translation:
"46. "And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction;
a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed
out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age)."
::Jonathan Mitchell's New Testament Translation::

"....the Old Syriac Version [i.e., the Peshi^to], where the one [i.e., uniform] rendering is still more unmistakably clear: ‘These shall go away to the pain of the olam, and these to the life of the olam’–the world to come.” http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Retri...ribution18.htm

"Of the New Testament, attempts at translation must have been made very early, and among the ancient versions of New Testament Scripture the Syriac in all likelihood is the earliest."
http://www.bible-researcher.com/syriac-isbe.html

"The Peshi^to is, as we have said, the earliest version of the New Testament. Its value and authority it is not easy to over-estimate. Westcott says: “Gregory Bar Hebraeus, one of the most learned and accurate of Syrian writers, relates that the New Testament Peshi^to was ‘made in the time of Thaddeus (the apostle), and Abgarus, King of Edessa,’ when, according to the universal opinion of ancient writers, the apostle went to proclaim Christianity in Mesopotamia” (Canon, p. 259). He adds that Gregory assumes the apostolic origin of the New Testament Peshi^ito as certain, and that it preceded all the sects of the Syrian Church, and was received and appealed to by all."

"How, then, was aionios translated by this version? In support of his own translation Prof. Tayler Lewis says, “So is it ever (translated) in the old Syriac version, where the one rendering is still more unmistakably clear.” “These shall go into the pain of the Olam (the world to come), and these to the life of the Olam (the world to come).” He refers to many other passages, as Matt. xix. 16; Mark x. 17.; Luke xviii. 18; John iii.15: Acts xiii. 46; 1 Tim. vi. 12, in which aionios is rendered belonging to the Olam, the world to come."
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Retri...ribution18.htm

Last edited by ClementofA; 06-14-2018 at 11:49 PM..
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