U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-14-2018, 04:00 PM
 
427 posts, read 95,207 times
Reputation: 61

Advertisements

The same Greek words for "eternal(aionios) fire" (or age-lasting fire, or eonian fire, etc, as literal Bibles translate it) are used of the "eternal fire" (Jude 1:7) that burned Sodom & was not "eternal" but temporary, i.e. finite.

The same Greek word for "eternal", i.e. aionios, is also used by early church father Chrysostom of an obviously finite duration here:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)


The Greek text may be found here:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.e...enses,_MGR.pdf

In Philo is another example of aionios being finite, not "eternal":

""Philo [20 BC - 50 AD, contemporary with Christ] used the exact phraseology we find in Matthew 25:46 - just as Christ used it - in the context of temporal affairs between people of different socio-economic classes:"

" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment (kolasis aiónios) from such as are more powerful" (Fragmenta, Tom. ii., p. 667)."
That Happy Expectation: Eternal or Eonian? Part Five (The Greek Adjective Aiónios)

"It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct."
Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments

" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment [kolasis aiónios] from such as are more powerful." Here we have the exact terms employed by out Lord, to show that aiónion did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."Kolasis

Here is another ancient Koine Greek example of aionios being finite, not "eternal":

"Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "
Chapter Nine

Which is verified by the following:

https://ia800300.us.archive.org/4/it...00deisuoft.pdf

The original Greek he copied from the tablet is given at the url above, along with an English translation which was, in this case, “eternal and more than eternal and almighty…”

“…The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D. ; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century, that is to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible about the time of Origen.” [page 275ff]

Several more examples of the ancient Koine Greek word aionios not being "eternal" but of finite duration are as follows:

"In the Apostolical Constitutions, a work of the fourth century A.D., it is said, kai touto humin esto nomimon aionion hos tes suntleias to aionos, "And let this be to you an eonian ordinance until the consummation of the eon." Obviously there was no thought in the author's mind of endless time...."

"St. Gregory of Nyssa speaks of aionios diastêma, "an eonian interval." It would be absurd to call an interval "endless."

"Long ago in Rome, periodic games were held. These were referred to as "secular" games. Herodian, who wrote in Greek about the end of the second century A.D., called these aionios, "eonian," games. In no sense could those games have been eternal.Chapter Nine

Early church father & universalist Origen's "insistence on punishment as a corrective is in direct response to accusations raised by Marcionite and Gnostic heretics of his time who accused God of cruelty and injustice (Sachs 625-626). By lifting voices from the scriptures that suggest that punishment is neither eternal nor without hope of providing correction, Origen hopes to show that the God of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament are not so divergent in character, but rather are one and the same and that God’s nature is good and loving." Apokatastasis in the Thought of Origen and Gregory of Nyssa -*BryceRich.net

Origen, born into a Koine Greek speaking culture & a Greek scholar, makes it clear that aionios punishment is not to be understood as everlasting or eternal punishment:

"There is a resurrection of the dead, and there is punishment, but not everlasting. For when the body is punished the soul is gradually purified, and so is restored to its ancient rank** For all wicked men, and for demons, too, punishment has an end, and both wicked men and demons shall be restored to their former rank 80"
https://books.google.ca/books?id=0t8...asting&f=false

Origen sees the punishment of "eternal fire" (Mt.25:41) as remedial, corrective & temporary:

"Chapter 10. On the Resurrection, and the Judgment, the Fire of Hell, and Punishments."

"1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church's teaching— viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners— let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be."

"...nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire."

"...And when this dissolution and rending asunder of soul shall have been tested by the application of fire, a solidification undoubtedly into a firmer structure will take place, and a restoration be effected."
CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)


Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

(19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=TuH...page&q&f=false

Greek text here:

http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/PG_...%20Joannis.pdf

And again he indicates so called "everlasting(aionios/eonian) punishment" (Mt.25:46) is temporary:

"That threats of aionios punishment are helpful for those immature who abstain from evil out of fear and not for love is repeated, e.g. in CC 6,26: "it is not helpful to go up to what will come beyond that punishment, for the sake of those who restrain themselves only with much difficulty, out of fear of the aionios punishment"; Hom. in Jer. 20 (19), 4: for a married woman it is better to believe that a faithless woman will undergo aionios punishment and keep faithful, rather than knowing the truth and becoming disloyal;" (p.178-9 in "The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena" by Ilaria Ramelli, Brill, 2013, 890 p.)

Origen speaking of "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life", is supported also by:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=t47...osited&f=false

Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika: A New Translation of the Unreformed Text from the Syriac (Writings from the Greco-Roman World), By Ilaria L.E. Ramelli (see pages 10- 11 at the url above).

Where again Origen refers to what is after eternal life, as well as after "the ages", beyond "ages of the ages" [often mistranslated forever & ever] and all ages.

https://www.amazon.com/Evagriuss-Kep.../dp/1628370394

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting [eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.

Consider also whether aionios is finite in these Greek Old Testament passages:

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone, which your fathers have set up. (Prov.22:28)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone. Don’t encroach on the fields of the fatherless: (Prov.23:10)

Those from among you will rebuild the ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;... (Isa 58:12a)
Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because the enemy has said against you, Aha! and, The ancient(aionios) high places are ours in possession; (Ezek.36:2)
Because of thy having an enmity age-during(aionios)... (Ezek.35:5a)

They will rebuild the perpetual(aionios) ruins and restore the places that were desolate; (Isa.61:4a)
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever(aionios): yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. (Jonah 2:6)

He beat back His foes; He gave them lasting(aionios) shame. (Psa.78:66)
Will you keep the old(aionios) way, which wicked men have trodden (Job 22:15)
Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life(aionios)? (Job 41:4)

’Will you not fear me?" says The Lord "will you not be cautious in front of my face? The One who appointed the sand to be the boundary to the sea, by perpetual(aionios) decree, that it will not cross over though it will be agitated it is not able and though the waves resound within her yet she will not overstep it. (Jer.5:22)

Their land will be an object of horror and of lasting(aionios) scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads. (Jer.18:16)
Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:9)

And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:12)
In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)

When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old(aionios),with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek.26:20)
I will make you a perpetual(aionios) desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited; and you shall know that I am Yahweh. (Ezek.35:9)
From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)

Thus says Yahweh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old(aionios) paths, ‘Where is the good way?’ and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (Jer.6:16)
For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient(aionios) paths, to walk in byways,in a way not built up; (Jer.18:15)
Then he remembered the days of old(aionios), Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock?where is he who put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Isa.63:11)

Greek scholar Marvin Vincent said:

"The adjective aionios, in like manner, carries the idea of “time.” Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting, though they may acquire that sense by their connotation. Aionios means “enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.” Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

"The same is true of aionios in the Septuagint. Out of 150 instances in the Septuagint, four-fifths imply limited duration".

"..."The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."

"...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."

".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

"...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."

"...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."

https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/book...-R-Vincent.pdf

https://books.google.ca/books?id=oDV...manded&f=false

Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart comments in his extensive notes (Concluding Scientific Postscript) re aionios following his translation of the New Testament:

"...John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aionios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only until the end of the present age, he explains). In the early centuries of the church, especially in the Greek and Syrian East, the lexical plasticity of the noun and the adjective was fully appreciated -and often exploited - by a number of Christian theologians and exegetes (especially such explicit universalists as the great Alexandrians Clement and Origen, the "pillar of orthodoxy" Gregory of Nyssa and his equally redoubtable sister Makrina, the great Syrian fathers Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Isaac of Ninevah, and so on, as well as many other more rhetorically reserved universalists, such as Gregory of Nazianzus)."

"Late in the fourth century, for instance, Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that "hell" is not an eternal condition, and that the "aionios punishment" of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God. Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aionios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the "Origenists", found it necessary to substitute the word atelevtetos for aionios when describing the punishments of hell, since the latter word was not decisive..."

"As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the "holy fathers" of Syrian Christian tradition, simply stated as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aionios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless. And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aionios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise" (The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.539-540).

https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament.../dp/0300186096
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-14-2018, 04:43 PM
 
911 posts, read 187,768 times
Reputation: 276
My assumption is you are in a <church> that believes everyone gets a pass in heaven. This means Jesus died for nothing and God says its all good. Nothing new on this board

Last edited by mensaguy; 06-14-2018 at 05:12 PM.. Reason: No need to call anybody's church a cult.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-14-2018, 05:53 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,138 posts, read 19,958,111 times
Reputation: 2104
Quote:
Originally Posted by SumTingy View Post
My assumption is you are in a <church> that believes everyone gets a pass in heaven. This means Jesus died for nothing and God says its all good. Nothing new on this board
When God does something he calls it good. When his son does something the scriptures call it good. When it offends fundamentalists they call it bad.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-14-2018, 05:58 PM
 
Location: the Kingdom of His dear Son
1,749 posts, read 384,693 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by SumTingy View Post
My assumption is you are in a <church> that believes everyone gets a pass in heaven. This means Jesus died for nothing and God says its all good. Nothing new on this board
Only if you believe in the "age of accountability" rule. Outside of the "rule", no free pass!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-14-2018, 06:01 PM
 
Location: the Kingdom of His dear Son
1,749 posts, read 384,693 times
Reputation: 76
My friend this is an exquisite work. The work is dead on the mark! We have been talking to a few rascals that are having a hard time grasping anything more than our Father losing the vast, vast majority of His creation. They need to take a few moments and consider the contents of this OP.

Greek scholar Marvin Vincent said:

"The adjective aionios, in like manner, carries the idea of “time.” Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting, though they may acquire that sense by their connotation. Aionios means “enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.” Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-14-2018, 09:37 PM
 
17,685 posts, read 8,860,686 times
Reputation: 1485
Quote:
Originally Posted by SumTingy View Post
My assumption is you are in a <church> that believes everyone gets a pass in heaven. This means Jesus died for nothing and God says its all good. Nothing new on this board
If he gave his life for ALL THE PEOPLE TO BE SAVED, then how can you say he died for nothing?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-14-2018, 10:21 PM
 
37,477 posts, read 25,217,301 times
Reputation: 5852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
If he gave his life for ALL THE PEOPLE TO BE SAVED, then how can you say he died for nothing?
They can't say it because it isn't true. What Jesus did saved all of us, period. Whether or not we take advantage of it and follow His instructions to His disciples to love God and each other every day and repent when we don't is up to us. We will reap whatever we sow and do not repent of, period, no matter what we claim to believe or not believe.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-15-2018, 06:11 AM
 
Location: the Kingdom of His dear Son
1,749 posts, read 384,693 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by SumTingy View Post
My assumption is you are in a <church> that believes everyone gets a pass in heaven. This means Jesus died for nothing and God says its all good. Nothing new on this board
You big silly! Your ghastly assumptions are incorrect! In the end EVERY being, in EVERY dimension (heaven+earth+underworld), openly and willingly bow the knee, and confess with the mouth "You are Lord"! This antiphonal chorus is IN His Name and is not, I repeat NOT, perfunctory genuflections!

Last edited by Rose2Luv; 06-15-2018 at 06:22 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-15-2018, 06:22 AM
 
Location: the Kingdom of His dear Son
1,749 posts, read 384,693 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose2Luv View Post
My friend this is an exquisite work. The work is dead on the mark! We have been talking to a few rascals that are having a hard time grasping anything more than our Father losing the vast, vast majority of His creation. They need to take a few moments and consider the contents of this OP.

Greek scholar Marvin Vincent said:

"The adjective aionios, in like manner, carries the idea of “time.” Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting, though they may acquire that sense by their connotation. Aionios means “enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.” Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."
Clement: where have you been hiding from my gaze? I behold many wonderful days here at C.D. singing together. It appears to me you need little help presenting a subject like the o.p. indicates, but this following piece helps cement what we together are presenting!

THE GREEK WORD

AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
by Rev. G. W. Hanson

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2018, 05:41 PM
 
Location: the Kingdom of His dear Son
1,749 posts, read 384,693 times
Reputation: 76
Dr. Wm. Barclay=

"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation

"If the Greek words eis tous aionas ton aionon mean endless time, as translated in the KJV, 'forever and ever,' we have a contradiction in Scripture."

There is no doubt that God has always existed, but the statement at Romans 16:26 speaks of Him as an eonian God. The Scriptures say He made the eons, so He existed before they were made, and He will exist after the eons have been concluded (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26). He is endless. To argue that "eonian God" makes the "eonian" unlimited time because God is unlimited is illogical. Isaiah 54:5, KJV, calls Him "the God of the whole earth." This does not preclude Him from also being the God of the entire universe. In the context of Romans 16:26, He is called the "eonian God," but He was God before the eons were made; He is God during all the eons, and in post-eonian times. In other words, just because the Scriptures refer to Him as the "God of the ages" does not preclude Him from being the God of eternity. The Scriptures declare Him the "God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob," and "the God of Israel." Does that mean He cannot therefore be the God of the gentiles, of the whole universe? Of course not!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top