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I agree it is mostly fruitless debating ET and I agree with OP. But what IS that message of Christ we need to preach? Do we make them an offer they cannot refuse?
That's debatable too .For instance
that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures
I do not agree with bible fundamentalists of all persuasions that the purpose of this was to make a way to heaven for us when we die. It was to bring heaven out from within us through the knowledge of the forgiveness of sins To give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins
“Everyone who trusts in me, just as the scriptures have said, rivers of living water shall flow from within him.
The only thing stopping the rivers of living waters flowing, is ignorance of the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of sins.
No, not ALL have sinned...And if you knew your bible then you'd know this...Also, the reason a lot of evangelism is controlled in those countries is because they tend to torment the populous, beat them over the head with their bibles...You don't see Jews doing this, do you?...Being a light unto the Gentiles means just that, a light that can be seen from a distance, not the light following you around 24/7, but something that draws one, Christianity seems to push people away from G-d by its behavior...Do you like getting junk mail everyday?...Would you call those advertisers and tell them that you know what you want and when you want something from them you will seek them out in accordance with your research on their product, not because they keep hitting you on the head with their advertisements until you submit...Mankind was not made sinners because of Adam, nothing in Torah states this, they were made sinners on an individual basis based on their own free-will decisions...
No, not ALL have sinned...And if you knew your bible then you'd know this...
My friend Richard: Not only have all sinned, all are sinners standing in the great need of intervention from Above! The old covenant records Adam and his help meet, needing garments to cover their nakedness from the Presence of the Glorious One. From the very beginning of the Old Covenant stands broken lost sinners in need of redemption!
My friend Richard: Not only have all sinned, all are sinners standing in the great need of intervention from Above! The old covenant records Adam and his help meet, needing garments to cover their nakedness from the Presence of the Glorious One. From the very beginning of the Old Covenant stands broken lost sinners in need of redemption!
Ok, sure, whatever...Man was not meant to stay in Gan Eden...And Adam was not expelled from Gan Eden because he ate the apple [sinned]...
Just to be clear, I'm OK calling it out - but just not going on and on and on...
There is more to this issue other than difference of opinion on hell. The Universalist deny God’s Word about hell. Do you think these same collection of like minded people stop about eternal judgment? Ask them about other hard truths in the Bible and it will be denied and toss aside with their interpretation to fit in with their modern progressive thought.
I think you are missing the bigger picture. The Universalist deny God’s Word about hell.
Where is G-d's word about hell?...
Quote:
Do you think these same collection of like minded people stop about eternal judgment? Ask them about other hard truths in the Bible and it will be denied and toss aside with their interpretation to fit in with their modern progressive thought.
Have you ever questioned that you may have been deceived?...Of course not...
but all are without glory and can not enter into the presence of the Lord . now true of sinner and saint.. one day it will change the saint will be changed so as to enter into the fires of his glory!
you are only repeating what you were taught in error.
The original sin doctrine of devils is imputing sin where there is none. And it is the same false shepherds who teach unversalism to persuade rebellion and fearlessness of the consequences of taking the mark of the beast. Hebrews
Trusting[a] is being confident of what we hope for, convinced about things we do not see. 2 It was for this that Scripture attested the merit of the people of old.
3 By trusting, we understand that the universe was created through a spoken word of God, so that what is seen did not come into being out of existing phenomena.
4 By trusting, Hevel offered a greater sacrifice than Kayin; because of this, he was attested as righteous, with God giving him this testimony on the ground of his gifts. Through having trusted, he still continues to speak, even though he is dead.
5 By trusting, Hanokh was taken away from this life without seeing death — “He was not to be found, because God took him away” — for he has been attested as having been, prior to being taken away, well pleasing to God.[b] 6 And without trusting, it is impossible to be well pleasing to God, because whoever approaches him must trust that he does exist and that he becomes a Rewarder to those who seek him out.
7 By trusting, Noach, after receiving divine warning about things as yet unseen, was filled with holy fear and built an ark to save his household. Through this trusting, he put the world under condemnation and received the righteousness that comes from trusting.
8 By trusting, Avraham obeyed, after being called to go out[c] to a place which God would give him as a possession; indeed, he went out without knowing where he was going. 9 By trusting, he lived as a temporary resident in the Land of the promise, as if it were not his, staying in tents with Yitz’chak and Ya‘akov, who were to receive what was promised along with him. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with permanent foundations, of which the architect and builder is God.
11 By trusting, he received potency to father a child, even when he was past the age for it, as was Sarah herself; because he regarded the One who had made the promise as trustworthy. 12 Therefore this one man, who was virtually dead, fathered descendants
as numerous as the stars in the sky,
and as countless as the grains of the sand on the seashore.[d]
13 All these people kept on trusting until they died, without receiving what had been promised. They had only seen it and welcomed it from a distance, while acknowledging that they were aliens and temporary residents on the earth.[e] 14 For people who speak this way make it clear that they are looking for a fatherland. 15 Now if they were to keep recalling the one they left, they would have an opportunity to return; 16 but as it is, they aspire to a better fatherland, a heavenly one. This is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.
17 By trusting, Avraham, when he was put to the test, offered up Yitz’chak as a sacrifice. Yes, he offered up his only son, he who had received the promises, 18 to whom it had been said, “What is called your ‘seed’ will be in Yitz’chak.”[f] 19 For he had concluded that God could even raise people from the dead! And, figuratively speaking, he did so receive him.
20 By trusting, Yitz’chak in his blessings over Ya‘akov and Esav made reference to events yet to come.
21 By trusting, Ya‘akov, when he was dying, blessed each of Yosef’s sons, leaning on his walking-stick as he bowed in prayer.[g]
22 By trusting, Yosef, near the end of his life, remembered about the Exodus of the people of Isra’el and gave instructions about what to do with his bones.
23 By trusting, the parents of Moshe hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw that he was a beautiful child,[h] and they weren’t afraid of the king’s decree.
24 By trusting, Moshe, after he had grown up,[i] refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose being mistreated along with God’s people rather than enjoying the passing pleasures of sin. 26 He had come to regard abuse suffered on behalf of the Messiah as greater riches than the treasures of Egypt, for he kept his eyes fixed on the reward.
27 By trusting, he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered as one who sees the unseen.
28 By trusting, he obeyed the requirements for the Pesach, including the smearing of the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Isra’el.
29 By trusting, they walked through the Red Sea as through dry land; when the Egyptians tried to do it, the sea swallowed them up.
30 By trusting, the walls of Yericho fell down — after the people had marched around them for seven days.
31 By trusting, Rachav the prostitute welcomed the spies and therefore did not die along with those who were disobedient.
32 What more should I say? There isn’t time to tell about Gid‘on, Barak, Shimshon, Yiftach, David, Sh’mu’el and the prophets; 33 who, through trusting, conquered kingdoms, worked righteousness, received what was promised, shut the mouths of lions,[j] 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, had their weakness turned to strength, grew mighty in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead resurrected; other people were stretched on the rack and beaten to death, refusing to be ransomed, so that they would gain a better resurrection. 36 Others underwent the trials of being mocked and whipped, then chained and imprisoned. 37 They were stoned, sawed in two, murdered by the sword; they went about clothed in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted, mistreated, 38 wandering about in deserts and mountains, living in caves and holes in the ground! The world was not worthy of them!
39 All of these had their merit attested because of their trusting. Nevertheless, they did not receive what had been promised, 40 because God had planned something better that would involve us, so that only with us would they be brought to the goal.
letter to those in Rome
Then what advantage has the Jew? What is the value of being circumcised?
2 Much in every way! In the first place, the Jews were entrusted with the very words of God. 3 If some of them were unfaithful, so what? Does their faithlessness cancel God’s faithfulness? 4 Heaven forbid! God would be true even if everyone were a liar! — as the Tanakh says,
“so that you, God, may be proved right in your words
and win the verdict when you are put on trial.”[a]
5 Now if our unrighteousness highlights God’s righteousness, what should we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict his anger on us? (I am speaking here the way people commonly do.) 6 Heaven forbid! Else, how could God judge the world? 7 “But,” you say, “if, through my lie, God’s truth is enhanced and brings him greater glory, why am I still judged merely for being a sinner?” 8 Indeed! Why not say (as some people slander us by claiming we do say), “Let us do evil, so that good may come of it”? Against them the judgment is a just one!
9 So are we Jews better off? Not entirely; for I have already made the charge that all people, Jews and Gentiles alike, are controlled by sin. 10 As the Tanakh puts it,
“There is no one righteous, not even one!
No one understands,
11 no one seeks God,
12 all have turned away
and at the same time become useless;
there is no one who shows kindness, not a single one![b]
13 “Their throats are open graves,
they use their tongues to deceive.[c]
Vipers’ venom is under their lips.[d]
14 Their mouths are full of curses and bitterness.[e]
15 “Their feet rush to shed blood,
16 in their ways are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of shalom they do not know.[f]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Moreover, we know that whatever the Torah says, it says to those living within the framework of the Torah, in order that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world be shown to deserve God’s adverse judgment. 20 For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteous[h] on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are.
21 But now, quite apart from Torah, God’s way of making people righteous in his sight has been made clear — although the Torah and the Prophets give their witness to it as well — 22 and it is a righteousness that comes from God, through the faithfulness of Yeshua the Messiah, to all who continue trusting. For it makes no difference whether one is a Jew or a Gentile, 23 since all have sinned and come short of earning God’s praise. 24 By God’s grace, without earning it, all are granted the status of being considered righteous before him, through the act redeeming us from our enslavement to sin that was accomplished by the Messiah Yeshua. 25 God put Yeshua forward as the kapparah for sin through his faithfulness in respect to his bloody sacrificial death. This vindicated God’s righteousness; because, in his forbearance, he had passed over [with neither punishment nor remission] the sins people had committed in the past; 26 and it vindicates his righteousness in the present age by showing that he is righteous himself and is also the one who makes people righteous on the ground of Yeshua’s faithfulness.
27 So what room is left for boasting? None at all! What kind of Torah excludes it? One that has to do with legalistic observance of rules? No, rather, a Torah that has to do with trusting. 28 Therefore, we hold the view that a person comes to be considered righteous by God on the ground of trusting, which has nothing to do with legalistic observance of Torah commands.
29 Or is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, he is indeed the God of the Gentiles; 30 because, as you will admit, God is one.[i] Therefore, he will consider righteous the circumcised on the ground of trusting and the uncircumcised through that same trusting. 31 Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah.
(1) Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered;
let those who hate him flee from his presence.
3 (2) Drive them away as smoke is driven away;
like wax melting in the presence of a fire,
let the wicked perish in the presence of God.
4 (3) But let the righteous rejoice and be glad in God’s presence;
yes, let them exult and rejoice.
5 (4) Sing to God, sing praises to his name;
extol him who rides on the clouds
by his name, Yah;
and be glad in his presence.
6 (5) God in his holy dwelling,
is a father to orphans and defender of widows.
7 (6) God gives homes to those who are alone
and leads prisoners out into prosperity.
But rebels must live in a parched wasteland.
8 (7) God, when you went out at the head of your people,
when you marched out through the wilderness, (Selah)
9 (8) the earth quaked, and rain poured from the sky,
at the presence of God.
Even Sinai [shook] at the presence of God,
the God of Isra’el.
10 (9) You rained down showers in plenty, God;
when your heritage was weary, you restored it.
11 (10) Your flock settled in it;
in your goodness, God, you provided for the poor.
12 (11) Adonai gives the command;
the women with the good news are a mighty army.
13 (12) Kings and their armies are fleeing, fleeing,
while the women at home divide the spoil.
14 (13) Even if you lie among the animal stalls,
there are wings of a dove covered with silver
and its plumes with green gold.
15 (14) When Shaddai scatters kings there,
snow falls on Tzalmon.
16 (15) You mighty mountain, Mount Bashan!
You rugged mountain, Mount Bashan!
17 (16) You rugged mountain, why look with envy
at the mountain God wants for his place to live?
Truly, Adonai will live there forever.
18 (17) God’s chariots are myriads, repeated thousands;
Adonai is among them as in Sinai, in holiness.
19 (18) After you went up into the heights,
you led captivity captive,
you took gifts among mankind,
yes, even among the rebels,
so that Yah, God, might live there.
20 (19) Blessed be Adonai!
Every day he bears our burden,
does God, our salvation. (Selah)
21 (20) Our God is a God who saves;
from Adonai Adonai comes escape from death.
22 (21) God will surely crush the heads of his enemies,
the hairy crowns of those who continue in their guilt.
23 (22) Adonai said, “I will bring them back from Bashan,
I will fetch [those rebels] even from the depths of the sea;
24 (23) so that you can wash your feet in their blood,
and your dogs’ tongues too can get their share from your foes.
25 (24) They see your processions, God,
the processions of my God, my king, in holiness.
26 (25) The singers are in front, the musicians last,
in the middle are girls playing tambourines.
27 (26) “In choruses, bless God, Adonai,
you whose source is Isra’el.”
28 (27) There is Binyamin, the youngest, at the head;
the princes of Y’hudah, crowding along;
the princes of Z’vulun; the princes of Naftali.
29 (28) God, summon your strength!
Use your strength, God, as you did for us before,
30 (29) from your temple in Yerushalayim,
where kings will bring tribute to you.
31 (30) Rebuke the wild beast of the reeds,
that herd of bulls with their calves, the peoples,
who ingratiate themselves with bars of silver;
let him scatter the peoples who take pleasure in fighting.
32 (31) Let envoys come from Egypt,
Let Ethiopia stretch out its hands to God.
33 (32) Sing to God, kingdoms of the earth!
Sing praises to Adonai, (Selah)
34 (33) to him who rides on the most ancient heavens.
Listen, as he utters his voice, a mighty voice!
35 (34) Acknowledge that strength belongs to God,
with his majesty over Isra’el and his strength in the skies.
36 (35) How awe-inspiring you are, God,
from your holy places,
the God of Isra’el, who gives strength
and power to the people.
Blessed be God!
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