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Richard is a Jew. The majority of Jews do not think of Satan as evil. They think of him as an agent of God who tempts us to find out for God what choices WE will make---good or evil. No blaming the "Devil" for what we ourselves choose to do.
With my recent exposure to Jewish ideas (reformed) by my son marrying a Jewish woman, I have had a little more personal exposure to some of their ideas.
The idea of Satan as God's agent, who can do nothing without God's permission (see the book of Job), I agree one hundred percent. The good vs evil ideas have been inserted into Christianity by pagan Greek beliefs that infected early Jewish converts to Christianity.
This more ancient understanding of Satan helps us understand ourselves better and makes demands on us to stay focused on God's total integration into the lives of His people. He doesn't desire to hurt them, but rather desires to see for Himself if our frailties can be overcome by our love of Him.
In this case, the Hebrew understanding of Satan doesn't allow us to make excuses to God for our willingness to be seduced by things which don't honor God.
Richard has a better, more ancient, and more practical understanding of Satan whom too many Christians use as a scapegoat for their own sins.
There are plenty of resources derived from Jewish organizations or rabbis on the subject such as the below link:
Does the Book of Job really convey the idea of HaSatan working for God?
Reading the Book of Job (iyov) about the account of HaSatan one can come away with the idea that Satan is a prosecutor who comes into a courtroom with God as the presiding judge. However, he's not an agent working for God. In fact,regardless of which Bible translation one uses, the Book of Job not only depicts Satan as accusing Job, and by extension man, of serving God not out of genuine love but also of being able to turn anyone, even a blameless man, from serving God. Satan also accuses God of using his power unfairly in protecting Job (Job 1:9-11). That doesn't sound like an agent working for God but does sound as he is depicted, an adversary who slanders God and man.
The idea that Satan has no power does not align with the account in Job. Clearly Satan does have power to wreak havoc as he did against Job and his family. However, the account does show that Satan is powerless to go against a commandment of God. God does not allow Satan to kill Job and indeed Satan is impotent to go against that commandment.
Its interesting that in the Bible Book of Daniel the adversaries of God, these spirit creatures, do have power (Daniel 10:13) The ancient Jews thus did have a reason to believe that these spirit creatures, including Satan, have power to oppose even those who are the true agents of God which is contrary to modern Jewish thinking.
It appears that modern day Jews rely on Isaiah 45:5-7 to believe that God created evil. However some things to consider. The word translated evil is from a Hebrew word that also means calamity, adversity. The word can also refer to moral evil but in this scripture of Isaiah we should look at the context. God is saying that he becomes the rewarder of a faithful Israel but also the punisher of a rebellious Israel. Hence its not moral evil that the scripture refers to but calamity or adversity for a rebellious people.
It is unthinkable that God created moral evil. The ancient Jews would have been aware of this from the description of God in Deuteronomy 32:3,4
One last point, many Christians do not use Satan as an excuse for their own shortcomings. Christians recognize this from both the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. Compare Ecclesiastes 8:9 and Galatians 6:7
Does the Book of Job really convey the idea of HaSatan working for God?
Reading the Book of Job (iyov) about the account of HaSatan one can come away with the idea that Satan is a prosecutor who comes into a courtroom with God as the presiding judge. However, he's not an agent working for God. In fact,regardless of which Bible translation one uses, the Book of Job not only depicts Satan as accusing Job, and by extension man, of serving God not out of genuine love but also of being able to turn anyone, even a blameless man, from serving God. Satan also accuses God of using his power unfairly in protecting Job (Job 1:9-11). That doesn't sound like an agent working for God but does sound as he is depicted, an adversary who slanders God and man.
The idea that Satan has no power does not align with the account in Job. Clearly Satan does have power to wreak havoc as he did against Job and his family. However, the account does show that Satan is powerless to go against a commandment of God. God does not allow Satan to kill Job and indeed Satan is impotent to go against that commandment.
Its interesting that in the Bible Book of Daniel the adversaries of God, these spirit creatures, do have power (Daniel 10:13) The ancient Jews thus did have a reason to believe that these spirit creatures, including Satan, have power to oppose even those who are the true agents of God which is contrary to modern Jewish thinking.
It appears that modern day Jews rely on Isaiah 45:5-7 to believe that God created evil. However some things to consider. The word translated evil is from a Hebrew word that also means calamity, adversity. The word can also refer to moral evil but in this scripture of Isaiah we should look at the context. God is saying that he becomes the rewarder of a faithful Israel but also the punisher of a rebellious Israel. Hence its not moral evil that the scripture refers to but calamity or adversity for a rebellious people.
It is unthinkable that God created moral evil. The ancient Jews would have been aware of this from the description of God in Deuteronomy 32:3,4
One last point, many Christians do not use Satan as an excuse for their own shortcomings. Christians recognize this from both the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. Compare Ecclesiastes 8:9 and Galatians 6:7
You have a lot wrong here, but that is what you get when you do not use Jewish source and instead rely on Christian sources....
I assume you see no negative consequences from the "win" by this Satan character? Mind, I do NOT believe Satan is some separate supernatural being. I believe Satan is our undiscriminating reptilian brain (Serpent) the source of our drives. But for those who do believe in this being, I am curious what his upside would be in all this.
The bible states satan is real. Don't you believe God inspired its words? If you do, you just called God a liar. How can Jesus capture satan and abyss him if he is not real? How can Michael have a war in heaven against satan and his angels if he weren't real? Is Michael a moron?
Jesus himself talks about the being satan the devil at John 8:44--- You need to relook, or you will fail this-John 4:22-24--This is Gods will for mortals--And Jesus was clear--only those living now to do his Fathers will get to enter his kingdom( Matt 7:21)
I don't know if these are your personal made up truths or if you listened to blind guides. But those thoughts oppose Jesus.
David was Mashiach and the priests in the Temple were Mashiach...Anyone can be Mashiach....
Possibly with alternate meaning of what the Messiah actually is. Jesus is the only true Messiah--The one sent forth from God, from heaven, All the rest originated on earth as mortal never in heaven before. That's the difference.
I assume you see no negative consequences from the "win" by this Satan character? Mind, I do NOT believe Satan is some separate supernatural being. I believe Satan is our undiscriminating reptilian brain (Serpent) the source of our drives. But for those who do believe in this being, I am curious what his upside would be in all this.
Whats so hard to understand about Satan 'winning'... he has successfully drawn a majority of people away from God? THAT IS what he wins.
You have a lot wrong here, but that is what you get when you do not use Jewish source and instead rely on Christian sources....
Actually it was a Jewish source he used Richard, but obviously he either did not understand what the writer was saying or was disagreeing with the writer.
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