Looking for thoughts about the so called rapture (traditions, Messiah, scripture)
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I saw nothing from Paul stating anything close to the rapture theory. You may believe what you want about this issue since I do not see this issue as one of salvation but an interpretation of Scripture. I just never saw any point of believing it. But if there is a rapture then I will know. If there isn't a rapture then I will not be disappointed.
I've already explained in post #6 that the term Paul used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17,- harpazó, is the catching away of the church, commonly referred to as the rapture.
The rapture theory teaches that there won't be any Christians on earth when the Antichrist appears. This is a line of bull and I'll never buy into it. There are many very good and faithful Christians who believe in the rapture. Unfortunately, they will be disappointed when they are stuck on earth with the Antichrist and not raptured up to heaven. The early Christians were severely persecuted and the end time church will also be severely persecuted for their faith.
I agree with you. It seems that those who believe that the rapture is to save them from the wrath of the anti-Christ count themselves unworthy to suffer persecution for the name of Jesus Christ as the early church did. Perhaps this is why this modern theological interpretation gained popularity at the end of the church age when the church had grown apostate and unwilling to die for their faith. I'm pretty sure the anti-Christ has already appeared.
This is the second coming of Christ. The verse has nothing to do with a disappearance of Christians during the tribulation. And just because a Latin word is used here makes no difference. The entire theory is named after the word from this verse which does not mean a second coming before the second coming nor does this verse imply that Christians will not be on the earth during the Antichrist.
There is the resurrection of the dead which comes first. Then Christ returns and the believers are caught up in the air with Christ. This happens at the end of the reign of the Antichrist. So many Christians will be oppressed and mercilessly slaughtered by liberals and their muslim allies. The reign of the Antichrist is rising now as we speak.
You think the liberals will persecute the Christians? Hmmm.... I don't see it that way at all. The Anti-christ and his religious-political bride will be the ones doing the persecution as they already are.
I've already explained that Paul indicated that the rapture of the church occurs before the day of the Lord which begins with the Tribulation. I further showed that if the rapture of the church didn't take place until Christ's return at the end of the Tribulation there wouldn't be anyone left in mortal bodies to go into the Millennial kingdom and repopulate the earth. For that reason alone, a post-Tribulational rapture is impossible.
I brought up the Latin translation to show where the English term 'rapture' comes from.
Where does paul indicate a rapture prior to the tribulation?
After the 3 1/2 year tribulation(Daniel 7:25, 12:7)(Rev 11:2-3, 12:6 and 14, 13:5) Jesus will return(Matt 24:29-31)(2 Thess 2:3, 8) and then the gathering(rapture). After that is the great tribulation(time of trouble, God's wrath) (Daniel 12:1). The length of the great tribulation is 1 year(Isaiah 34:8, 63:4)
Rev 7:9-17 speaks of a great multitude that come out of the great tribulation, these are the ones who will reproduce for the millennial reign.
The outcome of the rapture is from Revelations 20 ....... ``And I saw thrones, and they sat on them , and judgment was give on them , and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus , and for the Word of God , and which had not worshiped the beast , neither his image , neither had received his mark on their forehead , or in the hands , and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years ........Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection on such the second death has no power , but they will be priest of God and of Christ and will reign with Him a thousand years .``.................................See here are though who came by the rapture , as no flesh will survive on the earth outside of though who Jesus protects ...
In what I have studied I see no Biblical basis for the rapture. This concept was popularized in the 1830s and has since been promoted through various methods. Careful studying of the scriptures does not reveal a rapture that is separate from the return of Christ.
I Thes 4:15-17.
I am in the process of moving and have packed all of my reference books, so I will have e to do this from memory, which is not reliable anymore.
In a translation of one of the so called early church fathers, the word used for "caught up," was "raptio"(probably spelled wrong). That word got translated as "rapture" in English.
Jesus does not return to earth at the rapture. The church meets Him in the air. He will return to earth later.
In what I have studied I see no Biblical basis for the rapture. This concept was popularized in the 1830s and has since been promoted through various methods. Careful studying of the scriptures does not reveal a rapture that is separate from the return of Christ.
In the words of a great philosopher, "What, ME worry?"
I've already explained in post #6 that the term Paul used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17,- harpazó, is the catching away of the church, commonly referred to as the rapture.
I'm sorry Mike but I don't accept the explanation. Sorry.
I just don't believe Christians are gonna be exempt from the Antichrist. But since I'm willing to admit I could be wrong I'll just leave this as a disagreement. If people want me to believe in rapture then they better know how to properly harmonize prophecy into a solid explanation that is supported by Scripture without assumption.
I'm sorry Mike but I don't accept the explanation. Sorry.
I just don't believe Christians are gonna be exempt from the Antichrist. But since I'm willing to admit I could be wrong I'll just leave this as a disagreement. If people want me to believe in rapture then they better know how to properly harmonize prophecy into a solid explanation that is supported by Scripture without assumption.
Whether or not you believe the Bible speaks of a rapture is your affair. But I've already shown that Paul speaks of the catching up of the church, which is commonly referred to as the rapture.
Where does paul indicate a rapture prior to the tribulation?
After the 3 1/2 year tribulation(Daniel 7:25, 12:7)(Rev 11:2-3, 12:6 and 14, 13:5) Jesus will return(Matt 24:29-31)(2 Thess 2:3, 8) and then the gathering(rapture). After that is the great tribulation(time of trouble, God's wrath) (Daniel 12:1). The length of the great tribulation is 1 year(Isaiah 34:8, 63:4)
Rev 7:9-17 speaks of a great multitude that come out of the great tribulation, these are the ones who will reproduce for the millennial reign.
I already went into that in post #6. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 Paul speaks of the resurrection and rapture of the church. The catching up of the church in verse 17 is the rapture. That event occurs before the day of the Lord which Paul speaks of in chapter 5. The day of the Lord begins with the Tribulation. Paul states in both 1 Thess. 1:10 and 5:9 that the church is not destined for the wrath to come which in context is the day of the Lord.
I've already shown a major problem with the post-Tribulational rapture view. Since the resurrection of the church and the rapture of the church take place at the same time, a post-Tribulational rapture would mean that everybody gets resurrected when Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation. But that wouldn't leave anyone left in their mortal bodies to go into the Millennial kingdom in order to repopulate the earth. In the Millennial kingdom people will still be born, and people will still be able to die. Additionally, people born in the Millennial kingdom will still have sin natures.
In the post-Tribulational rapture view, the church goes through the Tribulation, and everyone who receives Jesus as Savior during the Tribulation becomes part of the church. Then when Jesus returns, everyone gets resurrected leaving no one left to go into the Millennial kingdom in their mortal form. The post-Tribulational rapture view therefore cannot be supported by the Bible.
In the pre-Tribulational view of the rapture, the church gets resurrected and raptured at some point before the Tribulation begins. During the Tribulation, anyone who believes in Christ is saved, but is not a part of the church. Many of these Tribulational believers will be martyred. But many will survive the Tribulation to go into the Millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies. They will give birth to children, who will in turn give birth to children and the earth will be repopulated. Many during the Millennial kingdom will not believe in Christ even though He is on the earth and ruling from the throne of David.
Again, in the post-Tribulation rapture view no one would be left in mortal form to go into the Millennial kingdom. I don't know how it can be any more clearly stated.
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