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Old 08-05-2018, 12:03 AM
 
Location: US
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I have yet to see a proper interpretation of this parable...
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Old 08-05-2018, 12:08 AM
 
Location: US
27,992 posts, read 15,074,605 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
I'll prefer the understanding that the rich man represents the Jewish clergy back then and Lazarus the common people, I didn't find the article I wanted to link in the first place, but they come quite close:

Meaning of Rich Man and Lazarus parable

THE HIDDEN MEANING BEHIND THE PARABLE OF THE RICH MAN


That was the article I was looking for in the first place:

https://www.concordant.org/expositio...arus-part-one/

https://www.concordant.org/expositio...arus-part-two/
The Rich man is the priesthood that represents Israel and Lazarus represents the Gentiles...Being in the bosom of Abraham means a position of honor...The Rich man’s five brothers represent the five brothers of Judah...
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Old 08-05-2018, 06:51 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Are you asking for comments?
People love to open new thread on topics already discussed on dozens of other threads.

"people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,"

"between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 08-05-2018 at 07:00 AM..
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Old 08-05-2018, 08:42 AM
 
Location: New England
32,247 posts, read 21,127,372 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
People love to open new thread on topics already discussed on dozens of other threads.

"people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,"

"between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
You are relying on a false understanding of a parable to come to that conclusion about the chasm. Jesus would not need a parable to relate the consequences of not believing in him. For instance, he made it perfectly clear WITHOUT the use of parable to tell Jerusalem that it would not see him UNTIL they said “blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord”. Notice too he did not threaten Jerusalem with your eternal hell beliefs.
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Old 08-05-2018, 08:56 AM
Status: "be angry and sin not!" (set 8 days ago)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clementofa View Post
even of the rich man in hades (lk.16:19-31) it is not stated how long his torments would last while there. Or denied that they could end while still there. Nor is it denied he could be saved while still in hades. The rich man's saviour is in hades:

"if i ascend up into heaven, thou art there; if i make my bed in the nether-world (sheol = hades), behold, thou art there." (psalm 139:8)

the rich man is called "son" (literally, "child") :

Lk.16:25 “but abraham replied, ‘son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things

"here, too, was one who, even in hades, was recognised as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of abraham.” (comp. Luke 19:9.) the word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the prodigal son (luke 15:31), which our lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (matthew 9:2), or to his own disciples (john 13:33)." ellicott's commentary for english readers

the rich man in hades is receiving the word of truth from abraham. If not to lead those there to repentance & salvation, why would anyone in hades be receiving such truths.

When it is implied that the rich man is where he is due to his lack of compassion for his fellow man, in particular lazarus, he responds positively by turning his attention from himself to his brethren still alive & requests that they be warned about hades. Is the rich man turning from his selfishness & showing concern for others?

The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in hades while he remains there.

" “and besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.” "

" "so even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of father abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “you cannot cross over from there to us.” we’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [but doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, i recommend angelica kratzer’s “what ‘must’ and ‘can’ must and can mean” (linguistics and philosophy 1 (1977): Pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“relative modality”) of david lewis’s “scorekeeping in a language game” (journal of philosophical logic 8 (1979): Pp. 339-359.]"

the duration, nature, intensity & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

In rev.20:11-15 those in hades get out of hades, so hades (lk.16:19-31) is not a place of unending torments. Assuming the parable's story is even to be taken literally.

Tom talbott, phd, said:

"as for the unbridgeable chasm of which jesus spoke in the parable of the rich man and lazarus, not one word in this parable, even if taken as literal history, as some do take it, implies that the chasm between hades and abraham’s bosom will remain unbridgeable forever. Do not christians believe that the cross has already guaranteed the ultimate destruction of sin and death, where the “last enemy to be destroyed,” as we have already noted, “is death” itself? When 1 peter 3:19 depicts jesus as preaching to the spirits in prison (or those who were disobedient in the days of noah) and 1 peter 4:6 also depicts him as preaching the gospel to the dead, do these texts not illustrate perfectly the view of elhanan winchester,13 who wrote: “i believe, that jesus christ was not only able to pass, but that he actually did pass that gulph, which was impassable to all men but not to him”?14 even if one should take the details of this parable more literally than one should, in other words, one can still view the cross as the means whereby jesus christ has bridged this hitherto unbridgeable gulf. By flinging himself into the chasm between the dead and the living and by building a bridge over it, jesus thus brought his message of repentance and forgiveness to all people, including those in hades, which is the abode of the dead."

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2018/0...t-perspective/


---


we might also want to consider these passages in the same book of luke's gospel:

Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, i bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.

Glory to god in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.

Luke 3:5 every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough ways made smooth;
luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of god.’”

luke 4:18 the spirit of the lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

but love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the most high, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

luke 15:3 and he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4what man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luke 15:8 either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

Lk17:4 even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘i repent,’ you must forgive him.”


----


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

bible threatenings explained

unique proof for christian, biblical universalism
HUM... BUT what I found odd in this parable was also how he didn't even ask to be set free, MAYBE his god( EVEN HIMSELF?) was not powerful enough to set him free from death.

Or ELSE did he just want to stay there?
I mean doesn't pain and sorrow just allow us to keep ourselves, our own feelings and or maybe even our justifications, unforgiveness, and excuses, as our main or only focus?
Pulling out of the pain in any situation takes hope and focus on something else besides our own feelings! I guess that skill is one apparently no one ever taught the rich man and IT APPARENTLY IT can't be bought with money. A skill i suspect that only the Holy Spirit can teach us.

AND WHY CHRISTIANS IN CHURCHES SING SONGS ABOUT CASTING DOWN OUR OWN IMAGINATIONS OR ANYTHING THAT EXALTS ITSELF AGAINST THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD. THAT MIGHT MEAN MAYBE EVEN DEATH.
THE RICH MAN HAD A GOD ABOUT HIS OWN SIZE.
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Old 08-05-2018, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Booth Texas
14,876 posts, read 4,985,692 times
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
The Rich man is the priesthood that represents Israel and Lazarus represents the Gentiles...Being in the bosom of Abraham means a position of honor...The Rich man’s five brothers represent the five brothers of Judah...
The dogs are the Gentiles. Dogs and swine.
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Old 08-06-2018, 12:50 AM
 
20,421 posts, read 9,843,300 times
Reputation: 1678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
People love to open new thread on topics already discussed on dozens of other threads.

"people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,"

"between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
You are relying on a false understanding of a parable to come to that conclusion about the chasm. Jesus would not need a parable to relate the consequences of not believing in him. For instance, he made it perfectly clear WITHOUT the use of parable to tell Jerusalem that it would not see him UNTIL they said “blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord”. Notice too he did not threaten Jerusalem with your eternal hell beliefs.
Unfortunately, there are people who need their pound of flesh.
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Old 08-06-2018, 01:18 AM
 
Location: Panama City, FL
3,139 posts, read 941,239 times
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Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Unfortunately, there are people who need their pound of flesh.
I would be happy to give away any number of pounds of flesh. Anyone need some?
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Old 08-06-2018, 05:56 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,127 posts, read 34,377,687 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Unfortunately, there are people who need their pound of flesh.
Jesus and His followers would not warn you if they were after your flesh. Satan, in the other hand, does want your flesh, which is why he wants you to ignore the warnings of Jesus.
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Old 08-06-2018, 02:48 PM
 
20,421 posts, read 9,843,300 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Unfortunately, there are people who need their pound of flesh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Jesus and His followers would not warn you if they were after your flesh. Satan, in the other hand, does want your flesh, which is why he wants you to ignore the warnings of Jesus.
I know, just like the word HELL, you can give it any meaning you what over time.
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